Dominator dyno run

TonyA · Apr 8, 2021

Clive said:
Resurrecting this old thread with some dyno charts in it as I just got a dyno run prior to modding my intake filters. Completely stock 2017 CR Euro4 Omex ECU, no cat, open long pipes with factory map(?). Their comment was that the mixture is simply too lean which is what they normally see on production bikes and he very much recommended not doing anything which might lean it off any further - particularly as I planned to do these mods prior to a heavy track session. One of the guys there had a friend with a Dominator 961 who got an 'up map'??? which made it richer and improved it: he is going to try to find out more. Anyone got any more details about factory maps which are available at dealers?

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Hello Clive , This is almost exactly what my dyno was back when I had the SC Typhoon and Short loud exhaust 68.85 HP . What I was trying to say to you earlier was you will need a tune of some kind to get anywhere with it. The OMEX may be a hurdle unless you can find a dyno tuner that can map it for you. You can always go the Power Commander route ? My fuel mileage dropped from 47 or more to 39.5 last trip with the Delta 400 with race cans map . I will be going to a dyno tuner soon in my area and will post and compare my first with what I have now. If you search you can find it .

Look at this from another member using the Power Commander . You will notice his power holds until 7500 rpm and almost 74 hp :

https://www.accessnorton.com/attachments/untitled-201_zpsyntgqr3v-png.70276/

iwilson · Apr 8, 2021

TonyA said:
Probe in the exhaust pipe ?

Won’t work if you have a cat in the way. No two dynos will read the same, they’re useful for comparing changes but not so much against each other. Engine is leaning out, but a probe up the exhaust is vulnerable to showing leaner readings than actual cylinder conditions. I ended up welding wideband o2 sensor bungs onto my system to get accurate readings.

TonyA · Apr 8, 2021

iwilson said:
Won’t work if you have a cat in the way. No two dynos will read the same, they’re useful for comparing changes but not so much against each other. Engine is leaning out, but a probe up the exhaust is vulnerable to showing leaner readings than actual cylinder conditions. I ended up welding wideband o2 sensor bungs onto my system to get accurate readings.

I thought he has no cat. But , it is still nice to see the dyno runs and with enough data we can compare them .

Clive · Apr 8, 2021

TonyA said:
Look at this from another member using the Power Commander . You will notice his power holds until 7500 rpm and almost 74 hp :

https://www.accessnorton.com/attachments/untitled-201_zpsyntgqr3v-png.70276/

It just does not sit well with me that the bike is fitted with an ECU whose purpose in life is to be a generic piece of kit developed over many man-hours to be programmed to work with a specific engine configuration yet we have to bolt an extra gadget on to force it to do what it was designed for. And all because it has been locked by Norton. I completely understand why they have done it and I would do the same in their shoes but what it would be great for each ECU to have its own lock code so once you obtain that from Norton your warranty (if any) is invalid but it cannot be used by someone else to mess up their ECU then go blaming Norton.

The best option is the SCS route but around 1k for less than 10BHP does not sound like good value. I don't understand why I can't do a factory reset to clear the existing software then load a map back in.....

TonyA · Apr 8, 2021

Clive said:
It just does not sit well with me that the bike is fitted with an ECU whose purpose in life is to be a generic piece of kit developed over many man-hours to be programmed to work with a specific engine configuration yet we have to bolt an extra gadget on to force it to do what it was designed for. And all because it has been locked by Norton. I completely understand why they have done it and I would do the same in their shoes but what it would be great for each ECU to have its own lock code so once you obtain that from Norton your warranty (if any) is invalid but it cannot be used by someone else to mess up their ECU then go blaming Norton.

The best option is the SCS route but around 1k for less than 10BHP does not sound like good value. I don't understand why I can't do a factory reset to clear the existing software then load a map back in.....

Your bike is no longer in warranty. Cant you find a OMEX dyno shop that can unlock ?

Clive · Apr 8, 2021

TonyA said:
Your bike is no longer in warranty. Cant you find a OMEX dyno shop that can unlock ?

Previous threads on the subject absolutely ruled out unlocking and Omex referred any enquiries to Norton. Maybe revisit it with Omex or If a dealer was able to load a richer map on then that might do the job.

Fast Eddie · Apr 8, 2021

Clive, if you already have the factory map for no cat and open pipes I doubt there is a significantly richer factory map available ?

You‘re right, ‘piggy back’ set ups do seem like a botch. But the PC route is very common with many makes. Ollie Thiel fits them actually, probably not ideal to ask him to set it up for you, but he may sell you the suitable parts and provide advice. Finding a dyno shop that’s familiar with dialling in PCs should be relatively easy.

Clive · Apr 8, 2021

Fast Eddie said:
Clive, if you already have the factory map for no cat and open pipes I doubt there is a significantly richer factory map available ?

Yup - the only hope is the guy at the Dyno shop knows someone who got a richer map for his Domi, but I'm always sceptical about someone who knows a mate who........

I have sent a question to Norton and may try a dealer like Krazy Horse.

I had a great time on the Jamie Whittam Mallory track day this week which actually just ended up as a day-long wild thrash with a break for snow. Everyone else had race bikes and I managed to keep up with a lot on Gerrards but they left me on the tighter esses and the straight. Realistically the Norton will never keep up with a sports bike over 400cc but it feels really planted in the corners, good on the brakes and stable at 100+mph so there is enough to enjoy on the track challenging myself on lap times. I would just like to get it a bit richer to avoid burning valves/pistons.

Fast Eddie · Apr 8, 2021

Clive said:
Yup - the only hope is the guy at the Dyno shop knows someone who got a richer map for his Domi, but I'm always sceptical about someone who knows a mate who........

I have sent a question to Norton and may try a dealer like Krazy Horse.

I had a great time on the Jamie Whittam Mallory track day this week which actually just ended up as a day-long wild thrash with a break for snow. Everyone else had race bikes and I managed to keep up with a lot on Gerrards but they left me on the tighter esses and the straight. Realistically the Norton will never keep up with a sports bike over 400cc but it feels really planted in the corners, good on the brakes and stable at 100+mph so there is enough to enjoy on the track challenging myself on lap times. I would just like to get it a bit richer to avoid burning valves/pistons.

Top man!

Knee down action pictures...?

iwilson · Apr 8, 2021

Didn't someone post the password to unlock the OMEX? I definitely remember reading a thread where it was made public. But even if true that would at best only allow you to upload a pre-existing map. Someone would need to buy a programmable OMEX ECU and develop new maps for the 961.

The issues with your bike running lean could be solved with a Power Commander although they are very limited compared to gaining full access to all the ECU functions. I think you made a comment somewhere about the closed loop system. This is not the problem, in fact when the engine is in closed loop it is adjusting the fueling using live data from the o2 sensors so the fueling should be perfect! The issue is that as soon as you open the throttle the ECU switches to open loop and ignores data from the o2 sensors. Instead it relies on its pre-programmed internal fuel maps - it is these maps that are causing the lean condition you see on your dyno run. If you remove the o2 sensors the ECU just permanently uses the internal fuel maps, not a problem if they produce the correct air fuel ratio. But as you can see in your case they do not!

Modern ECU's are just far to complex for anyone other than experts to mess with. I spent months doing courses and buying expensive diagnostic equipment before I got to grips with the ins and outs of the Delta 400 on my bike. The more I looked the more I was amazed at how complex the software engineers have made the seemingly simple internal combustion engine!

Clive · Apr 9, 2021

iwilson said:
Modern ECU's are just far to complex for anyone other than experts to mess with. I spent months doing courses and buying expensive diagnostic equipment before I got to grips with the ins and outs of the Delta 400 on my bike. The more I looked the more I was amazed at how complex the software engineers have made the seemingly simple internal combustion engine!

Thanks for this explanation - it is getting more involved than I hoped - it's looking more like the SCS route is the most likely to succeed. The shop where I got the dyno run done said that they could develop a map if they had access to the ECU/ programming tools. So I wonder who developed the Omex maps for Norton then?

So if the ECU is running in open loop mode any changes to the intake could indeed lean off the mixture even more. In open loop which sensors are affecting the fuelling and can their output be dynamically changed to persuade the ECU to provide more fuel? Or how about adjusting the fuel rail pressure? Or just go the power commander route.... At this point taking up golf instead starts to seem like a good idea.

Fast Eddie · Apr 9, 2021

IMHO: PC. As you have access to more people who know how to set them up.

Or golf.

TonyA · Apr 9, 2021

Fast Eddie said:
IMHO: PC. As you have access to more people who know how to set them up.

Or golf.

Dyno Jet Power Commander is cheaper too right ? There is room for it under the seat too. Get the PCV installed with the airbox get your first runs and tune . Then fit the K&N's and go back for the comparison tune and run. And I say it will exceed the the OEM Commando airbox numbers in both HP and TQ .

TonyA · Apr 9, 2021

In my area , Dyno shops are backed up for nearly 60 days. I can't get an appointment until May27th,.

Bernhard · Apr 9, 2021

TonyA said:
In my area , Dyno shops are backed up for nearly 60 days. I can't get an appointment until May27th,.

Must be a real money spinner! . . . .

cliffa · Apr 9, 2021

iwilson said:
Didn't someone post the password to unlock the OMEX? I definitely remember reading a thread where it was made public. But even if true that would at best only allow you to upload a pre-existing map. Someone would need to buy a programmable OMEX ECU and develop new maps for the 961.

The issues with your bike running lean could be solved with a Power Commander although they are very limited compared to gaining full access to all the ECU functions. I think you made a comment somewhere about the closed loop system. This is not the problem, in fact when the engine is in closed loop it is adjusting the fueling using live data from the o2 sensors so the fueling should be perfect! The issue is that as soon as you open the throttle the ECU switches to open loop and ignores data from the o2 sensors. Instead it relies on its pre-programmed internal fuel maps - it is these maps that are causing the lean condition you see on your dyno run. If you remove the o2 sensors the ECU just permanently uses the internal fuel maps, not a problem if they produce the correct air fuel ratio. But as you can see in your case they do not!

Modern ECU's are just far to complex for anyone other than experts to mess with. I spent months doing courses and buying expensive diagnostic equipment before I got to grips with the ins and outs of the Delta 400 on my bike. The more I looked the more I was amazed at how complex the software engineers have made the seemingly simple internal combustion engine!

They did indeed...

pasword omex comp 2010

i cant find the pasword on the threads,,

www.accessnorton.com

iwilson · Apr 10, 2021

Clive said:
Thanks for this explanation - it is getting more involved than I hoped - it's looking more like the SCS route is the most likely to succeed. The shop where I got the dyno run done said that they could develop a map if they had access to the ECU/ programming tools. So I wonder who developed the Omex maps for Norton then?

So if the ECU is running in open loop mode any changes to the intake could indeed lean off the mixture even more. In open loop which sensors are affecting the fuelling and can their output be dynamically changed to persuade the ECU to provide more fuel? Or how about adjusting the fuel rail pressure? Or just go the power commander route.... At this point taking up golf instead starts to seem like a good idea.

You could add a resistor to the intake air temperature sensor this would cause the ECU to add fuel if it thought the temperature was colder than actual (cold air is denser so contains more oxygen). These are what people sell on ebay, of course they don't mention they're nothing more than a 10c resistor!

I just did a lengthy post on the intake thread that wandered into tuning you might find interesting https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/inlet-upgrade.31944/post-525538

But there is one other possibility that could be a game changer....

The OMEX ECU model fitted to the 961 is the P600, this is a fully programmable ECU worth over 600 pounds. When I look at the OMEX website I see no mention of a neutered version of the P600. Is it possible that Norton somehow did a deal with OMEX to supply the P600 at a knockdown price? I wouldn't put it pass Garner to have done some kind of deal, especially when you consider the OMEX by not having OBDII functionality should not be fitted to a road vehicle.

I happen to still have an OMEX ECU lying around (I started with an SCS, Norton then fitted an OMEX and finally I went back to SCS with the Delta 400). Anyhow as I don't care I pulled it apart today.

As you can see it appears to be a P600. However....

There is a big chip socket with nothing in it....

Has anyone downloaded the OMEX MAP4000 software and tried it with the password? I suspect it won't work but it costs nothing to try other than a RS232 to USB cable.

Dominator dyno run

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