Dominator dyno run

Glen,
Certainly you’re correct.
There are many stories about hot rodding efforts gone wrong, through overreaching for too much at once.
I built quite a few Kawasaki and Suzuki four cylinder race motors back in the day and experienced that first hand.
The most effective way to build-up a motor is from a proven, conservative approach.
That’s why my initial suggestion for the 961 is simply to free up the stock, strangled, suffocated induction and exhaust.
Given what I see and have experienced with my 961, these two areas offer the easiest, least expensive avenue for improvement.
And this requires no cam changes or head work of any kind, which usually complicate matters.
In that state, with a Power Commander available, it should be fairly easy to extract another 10 HP over the stock setup.
Careful dyno work will preserve the midrange and torque curve.
Also, my experience, albeit with carb builds, is that freeing up engine breathing = better overall throttle response. A nice benefit.

I also own a Hinckley Bonneville 865 T100, with TPUSA 813 cams, airbox mods, free flowing exhaust.
Pretty conservative improvements, but it pulls far better than stock.
The 813 split lope cams preserve the original midrange, but from 4500 rpm up they totally transform the bike.
A stock 865 Bonneville will struggle to reach the 7000 rpm redline, in any gear.
I can bounce the needle off the redline now, and often smoked a buddy who had a stock Thruxton 865.

Building power in these twins isn’t rocket science; it just requires that you begin with reasonable expectations.
 
Hello again , For me , This is more of a Norton Motorcycles UK " Wish List " . I would like to see them continue to develop and enhance the 961 line. Another possibility would be to enlist a specialist firm to help them develop an accessory line . This should include a performance improvement section and a touring improvement section . Say bags , wind protection , touring seat and heated grips . Also the before mentioned Race Kits.
All of these things developed specifically for the Commando 961 . Proven and fully tested by the factory. The gearing changes provided by the sprockets now available thanks to G81CanCycle , The Coote's and CNW are a great start. I would like to hear more about the Air Filter developed by John (G81CanCycle) . I thought he said that it would be a direct replacement . I know for fact that K&N are NOT interested in making a filter that fits the 961 air box. I offered to send them a new Norton filter and the answer was NO , they wouldn't be doing that. Time will tell if any of this happens.
 
Or Use NITRO . :wink:

Olde 60s Triumphs ran 80 / 20 Nitro Methanol no worries .
Aeroplane that got the piston engine speed record of the nazis used 10 % after melting a motor on 20 % .

With the methanol ( alcohol ) to cool it , its feasable on a air cooled motor . If yyou want to find its mechanical limitations . :P

uprated Fuel System , and keep it rich . Straight Methanol , on a track bike , if legal now , was std. practise pre war .
Grand Prix Auto fuel was ' blended ' . Not Petrol as we know ( Knew ! ) it .

SO , methanol , with a bit of ' ignition improver , would have you at 100 Horsepower . Maybe even Real Horses , straight off .
if you didnt cock it up .
 
TonyA said:
Hello again , For me , This is more of a Norton Motorcycles UK " Wish List " . I would like to see them continue to develop and enhance the 961 line. Another possibility would be to enlist a specialist firm to help them develop an accessory line . This should include a performance improvement section and a touring improvement section . Say bags , wind protection , touring seat and heated grips . Also the before mentioned Race Kits.
All of these things developed specifically for the Commando 961 . Proven and fully tested by the factory. The gearing changes provided by the sprockets now available thanks to G81CanCycle , The Coote's and CNW are a great start. I would like to hear more about the Air Filter developed by John (G81CanCycle) . I thought he said that it would be a direct replacement . I know for fact that K&N are NOT interested in making a filter that fits the 961 air box. I offered to send them a new Norton filter and the answer was NO , they wouldn't be doing that. Time will tell if any of this happens.
Click to expand...

Tony,

I think with the limited numbers of 961’s sold, few manufacturers are interested in making parts for them.
My impression of the Factory mentality is that the 961 is a classic, not a performance machine.
As such they don’t have much interest in pursuing performance improvements.
They will shortly have a V4 1200 available for folks who want all out performance.
This is similar to the thinking of Triumph.
The Bonneville (865) was a classic, Triumph never offered any performance upgrades for it.
They tried to steer buyers to the speed triple or street triple if higher performance was desired.
Of course Triumph introduced a new 1200 Bonneville to improve performance, but not enough to challenge their triple sales.

John (G81CanCycle) was developing a 2 into 1 exhaust for the 961 as well as the improved air filter.
I’m not sure if he still intends to offer these in the near future.

I will keep my eyes open for the PCV that Dynojet said will be offered shortly for the 961.
With that, the door will be open to better performance from our Commands.
 
Matt Spencer said:
Or Use NITRO . :wink:

Olde 60s Triumphs ran 80 / 20 Nitro Methanol no worries .
Aeroplane that got the piston engine speed record of the nazis used 10 % after melting a motor on 20 % .

With the methanol ( alcohol ) to cool it , its feasable on a air cooled motor . If yyou want to find its mechanical limitations . :P

uprated Fuel System , and keep it rich . Straight Methanol , on a track bike , if legal now , was std. practise pre war .
Grand Prix Auto fuel was ' blended ' . Not Petrol as we know ( Knew ! ) it .

SO , methanol , with a bit of ' ignition improver , would have you at 100 Horsepower . Maybe even Real Horses , straight off .
if you didnt cock it up .
Click to expand...

Matt,

Alcohol and Nitro might well provide the power, but I for one have absolutely no experience working with either.
Attempting to use them could only lead to an explosive disaster for me. :lol:
My solution will have to rely on pump fuel.
 
TonyA said:
All of these things developed specifically for the Commando 961 . Proven and fully tested by the factory.
Click to expand...

:lol: As has been shown over and over again it's us muppets that are the test pilots for Norton. My bike is a patch work of fixes and work arounds in response to issues either I or others have experienced. I wouldn't lose a seconds sleep wondering if any performance enhancements will be forth coming. I think the focus is or should be on getting the stock engine fully sorted. Secondly I just can't see the appetite for more power. It's not a trackbike and my Dominator for example has enough power to require some degree of throttle modulation in the twisties. All I would like to see are better versions of the current maps. It's nothing to do with carbs vs. injection, it's still a person at the end of the day programming the ECU or for that matter setting up the carbs. Don't blame the machine blame the man responsible for the machine!
 
worntorn said:
BritTwit said:
TonyA said:
BUT , I stand by what I said before . This engine is capable of 90 HP with reliability. .......
Also, Matt Capri of Triumph Performance intended to develop and market performance products for the 961.
My hope was to build a new age Norton Hot Rod, but currently there are still no components on the market.
So far there is still nothing for the new Nortons other than exhaust systems.
A Power Commander with effective maps would be a nice for a start

1. The air box/plenum sure looks sexy, but is far too small for a 900-1000 cc engine to provide for adequate volumetric efficiency.
If an air box is to be used it has to have greater volume than the current one.
Option would be to remove the airbox and put sock filters and velocity stacks on the TBs, and install faux covers on the sides to look like the original airbox.

2. Throttle bodies (TBs)– are also too small, and restrictive with the butterfly valve to provide adequate flow of air for producing good power.
Kenny Dreer’s original 961 design used flatslide 39mm FCR’s. These babies flow a lot more fuel/air than the current throttle bodies.
I wonder if the stock 961 TBs have enough meat on them to be bored out a few mm like the TBs on Hinckley Bonnevilles?
There is a company in the UK that does this.....
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Having ridden a Triumph 790 that had the full TPUSA treatment, that is head sent to TPUSA for porting etc, hot cam,air box upgrade, twin 38 mm Kehein FCR's , high compression pistons, upgraded ignition, I would say be careful what you wish for.
In addition to the upgrades, that bike had undergone about a year of farting around with various dyno tuners to solve stalling problems and general running problems. In the end it managed to make 6 extra peak HP on the dyno on it's very best run ( but many runs against 1 stock run, so was it really 6 HP?)
The mid range and low end were totally gutted, virtually no power below 6 k then an decent little band between 6 and 8, that was it. My 1968 650 SS would run away from it using half throttle!
And this was supposed to be a proven performance kit , hundreds if not thousands of these done.


If you have a good runner now it might be best to just enjoy it as is.

Glen
Click to expand...

Hmmm, a good point well put Glen !
 
On the other hand it is good to see 961 owners discussing possible hotrodding-it means that at least some of the general running issues must be solved or much improved. :D

Glen
 
worntorn said:
BritTwit said:
TonyA said:
BUT , I stand by what I said before . This engine is capable of 90 HP with reliability. .......
Also, Matt Capri of Triumph Performance intended to develop and market performance products for the 961.
My hope was to build a new age Norton Hot Rod, but currently there are still no components on the market.
So far there is still nothing for the new Nortons other than exhaust systems.
A Power Commander with effective maps would be a nice for a start

1. The air box/plenum sure looks sexy, but is far too small for a 900-1000 cc engine to provide for adequate volumetric efficiency.
If an air box is to be used it has to have greater volume than the current one.
Option would be to remove the airbox and put sock filters and velocity stacks on the TBs, and install faux covers on the sides to look like the original airbox.

2. Throttle bodies (TBs)– are also too small, and restrictive with the butterfly valve to provide adequate flow of air for producing good power.
Kenny Dreer’s original 961 design used flatslide 39mm FCR’s. These babies flow a lot more fuel/air than the current throttle bodies.
I wonder if the stock 961 TBs have enough meat on them to be bored out a few mm like the TBs on Hinckley Bonnevilles?
There is a company in the UK that does this.....
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Having ridden a Triumph 790 that had the full TPUSA treatment, that is head sent to TPUSA for porting etc, hot cam,air box upgrade, twin 38 mm Kehein FCR's , high compression pistons, upgraded ignition, I would say be careful what you wish for.
In addition to the upgrades, that bike had undergone about a year of farting around with various dyno tuners to solve stalling problems and general running problems. In the end it managed to make 6 extra peak HP on the dyno on it's very best run ( but many runs against 1 stock run, so was it really 6 HP?)
The mid range and low end were totally gutted, virtually no power below 6 k then an decent little band between 6 and 8, that was it. My 1968 650 SS would run away from it using half throttle!
And this was supposed to be a proven performance kit , hundreds if not thousands of these done.


If you have a good runner now it might be best to just enjoy it as is.

Glen
Click to expand...

Having OWNED a 2004 790 Triumph from new i want to put a word forward in defence of the tuning of such.....
Obviously it depends on who does the tuning and how far you go with the tuning.....
Here in the UK we have a very experienced tuner of said engines by the name of Bob Farnham based near the Motor Racing Circuit of Brands Hatch. Having had all of the above done by Bob (with the exception of staying with the standard cams...oh, and 39mm fcr's by the way...) and perhaps a little bit more... i have a dynoed 32bhp and 20lb ft torque at the rear wheel more than standard and the bike runs STRONG right from tickover to 8000+ rpm. And is reliable ! SO.. if bikes are tuned correctly and by the right person, there should be no problems...
By the way, i also own a 961 cafe racer that has the Norton Short noisy pipes with Norton Decat and the latest remap All provided/done by Norton HQ. The bike runs great, with a steady tickover and decent low/midrange, then the bikes feels like it comes ''on cam'' about 5500 rpm when i really feel the engine come strong . Very exciting to ride, i really don't need anymore power for this type of bike. Regards, AL.
 
BritTwit said:
TonyA said:
BUT , I stand by what I said before . This engine is capable of 90 HP with reliability. I would be ecstatic if Norton would just let the engine rev to a full 8000 RPM !!!
Click to expand...

Tony,

I agree.

Also, It’s frustrating to me to see how there has been virtually no progress in extracting more HP from these motors.
Back in 2006 before Kenny Dreer’s efforts went bust, he began looking into a higher performance version of the 961.
He was working with a NASCAR team based in Washington State. I don’t remember the name of the team.
Also, Matt Capri of Triumph Performance intended to develop and market performance products for the 961.
My hope was to build a new age Norton Hot Rod, but currently there are still no components on the market.
So far there is still nothing for the new Nortons other than exhaust systems.
A Power Commander with effective maps would be a nice start.

I have spoken to engine builders here about the Norton, and they always identify two areas on the 961 that would need improvement to extract good HP:

1. The air box/plenum sure looks sexy, but is far too small for a 900-1000 cc engine to provide for adequate volumetric efficiency.
If an air box is to be used it has to have greater volume than the current one.
Option would be to remove the airbox and put sock filters and velocity stacks on the TBs, and install faux covers on the sides to look like the original airbox.

2. Throttle bodies (TBs)– are also too small, and restrictive with the butterfly valve to provide adequate flow of air for producing good power.
Kenny Dreer’s original 961 design used flatslide 39mm FCR’s. These babies flow a lot more fuel/air than the current throttle bodies.
I wonder if the stock 961 TBs have enough meat on them to be bored out a few mm like the TBs on Hinckley Bonnevilles?
There is a company in the UK that does this. They take the stock Bonneville 36mm TB and bore it to 39mm and fit new throttle valves to suit.

The airbox and throttle bodies are of course just fine for passing restrictive emission regulations, but will hamstring any efforts to extract real power from the mill.
Click to expand...

1. The air box/plenum sure looks sexy, but is far too small for a 900-1000 cc engine to provide for adequate volumetric efficiency.
If an air box is to be used it has to have greater volume than the current one.
Option would be to remove the airbox and put sock filters and velocity stacks on the TBs, and install faux covers on the sides to look like the original airbox.

This would be a very interesting exercise . I have been combing through the K & N Catalog , and I think there are several clamp on filters that would work . This would have to be done in conjunction with a shop on the dyno of course . The current Norton Maps could be tried to see what this would accomplish . Maybe quite a bit ! If the air box is as restrictive as you say then this would bear out ? Now , once the filter arrangement is sorted then another filter for the PCV and lets not forget the IDLE Motor intake. Also , the air temp sensor needs to be hung there in a protected place as well. Once this bears good fruit then , the designing of the faux air box side covers would be in order . Clearly , removing the air box would look very unfinished. The intake stacks will work because MM Cycles is doing it with the Red Tracker. In fact this may be a great place to contact for information .
 
Tony,

Interesting.
Has anyone actually heard the Red Tracker running?
Might be just a mock-up or show bike for display.
Wonder how MM Cycles is compensating for the use of velocity stacks?
With any of the standard Norton maps the bike would run way lean.
I don't see any way to adjust for this without a Power Commander and a custom map for the 961.
 
Yes they run. I read a article about on the web. MM Cycles has made or will be making 12 of these bikes .
 
BritTwit said:
Tony,

I agree. Also, It’s frustrating to me to see how there has been virtually no progress in extracting more HP from these motors.

I have spoken to engine builders here about the Norton, and they always identify two areas on the 961 that would need improvement to extract good HP:

1. The air box/plenum sure looks sexy, but is far too small for a 900-1000 cc engine to provide for adequate volumetric efficiency.
If an air box is to be used it has to have greater volume than the current one.
Option would be to remove the airbox and put sock filters and velocity stacks on the TBs, and install faux covers on the sides to look like the original airbox.
Click to expand...



A simple mod to extract more hp at modest road speed is to insert a small plastic funnel at the front of the bike with a tube running from it into the airbox, it will not /you will not fell any difference until the speedo hits 60mph, the you will fell a better roll on/off throttle response – I have done this on petrol/ diesel bikes, cars, vans it’s the same every time.

Disclaimer, NO I will not be held responsible for any engine malfunction due to weak air/gas, you are responsible for doing the plug chop at 60/70 mph e.t.c. to check mixture is not weaker.
 
Resurrecting this old thread with some dyno charts in it as I just got a dyno run prior to modding my intake filters. Completely stock 2017 CR Euro4 Omex ECU, no cat, open long pipes with factory map(?). Their comment was that the mixture is simply too lean which is what they normally see on production bikes and he very much recommended not doing anything which might lean it off any further - particularly as I planned to do these mods prior to a heavy track session. One of the guys there had a friend with a Dominator 961 who got an 'up map'??? which made it richer and improved it: he is going to try to find out more. Anyone got any more details about factory maps which are available at dealers?

Dominator dyno run
 


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