Date of manufacture

Trying to find the manufacturing date.







My Commando started its life as an Interpol and was dressed up as such when I bought it back in 1983. It was soon changed to a Roadster and is currently looking like it does above. Here is the problem though. The Interpol fairing was mounted with a U clamp around the headstock which would have clamped around the red VIN plate and as such when I got the bike no plate was fitted (nor any signs of it ever having one). I know it was registered in Rotherham, Yorkshire in June 1974 but not when it was built. The VMCC (Vintage Motorcycle Club) are unable to find the records for this machine. (Their records are incomplete and sketchy for '73 - '75).
A colleague has a similar Mk2A which was manufactured at the end of '73 but his (factory original) numbers are out of sinc to mine. Has mine had a frame or engine change?
I know the frame is one of the Italian ones - number 109506, with an 850 prefix.
The engine has number 314466 without any prefix or suffix (though has the correct start and finish symbol and appears totally genuine).
Does anybody out there have a similar number range and know what is correct.

Mark

UK based.
(Will try and update my profile...)

As the registered keeper, you're able to apply to DVLA for previous details.

https://www.dvla.gov.uk/dvla/data/relin ... quest.aspx

I've done this a couple of times (although not recently, I must admit) and each time the changes of keeper and colour were simply photocopies of their microfilm records showing each form filled in at the time.

This would at least let you see if there has ever been a change of engine number - at least since computerised records began - (was that prior to June '74 , it must've been around that time I think).

Otherwise, get in touch with Joe Seiffert at Andover Norton. They hold some mid-'70s ledgers that VMCC / NOC don't have.

Mine is 3149xx. I think it was Feb of '74 I can check when I get home.

whittakers said:

My Commando started its life as an Interpol and was dressed up as such when I bought it back in 1983. It was soon changed to a Roadster and is currently looking like it does above. Here is the problem though. The Interpol fairing was mounted with a U clamp around the headstock which would have clamped around the red VIN plate and as such when I got the bike no plate was fitted (nor any signs of it ever having one).

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Is there any evidence (4 holes?) that the certification plate could have been fixed to the frame spine tube in the area below the seat?

whittakers said:

A colleague has a similar Mk2A which was manufactured at the end of '73 but his (factory original) numbers are out of sinc to mine. Has mine had a frame or engine change?
I know the frame is one of the Italian ones - number 109506, with an 850 prefix.
The engine has number 314466 without any prefix or suffix (though has the correct start and finish symbol and appears totally genuine).

Click to expand...

Presumably, the frame number has the usual 'F' prefix (*850*F109506*) ?
According to the dynodave engine/frame data, the numbers are perhaps a few months adrift of each other.
http://atlanticgreen.com/commandoframes.htm

HI my 850MK2A eng.no is 311188 Red Plate is stamped 12 73.hope this helps
Geoff.

Wasn't Mk2A manufacture only started in very late 1973 - so that June registration date with a higher number seems quite plausible ?

Incidentally, your front disc is fitted to the 'wrong' side of the forks.
Its not impossible that the wheel bearing retainers could undo themselves and do you a mischief, if they are not prevented from doing so.
Just saying....

Rohan said:

Just saying....

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And the headlamp brackets are also fitted on the wrong sides. :wink:

geoff.s said:

HI my 850MK2A eng.no is 311188 Red Plate is stamped 12 73.hope this helps
Geoff.

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My Mk2A is also 12/73 - 311032.

drones76 said:

Mine is 3149xx. I think it was Feb of '74 I can check when I get home.

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Correction. May 1974.

Mine is 312xxx Feb 74 USA MkII

Plot thickens...
Got another response from the VMCC who estimate the build as Feb to March 74 (but not enough details to be precise regarding which numbers).
Yes the frame has the F prefix.
Regarding the red VIN plate, no there is no evidence of it being fitted anywhere else. Way back in the early eighties I had the frame stove enamelled as the (probably) original paint was falling off it and I remember noticing the 4 rivet holes on the headstock and wondering what they were for. Found out they were for the plate though the paint showed no sign of being rubbed / scuffed/ different than the rest of the frame.

As far as I know, the front disc has always been on the left (as the later Mk3 had) and have had no problem with bearing etc. Also I have seen other Mk2A models with this set up. I don't reckon any were officially sent over to the Americas so this might be just a European thing.

Headlamp bracket ears have a folded edge to them which faces inwards as does the spot welds so can only fit one way. (these are obviosly not the originals - Interplods had a full fairing).

whittakers said:

Headlamp bracket ears have a folded edge to them which faces inwards as does the spot welds so can only fit one way. (these are obviosly not the originals - Interplods had a full fairing).

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Headlamp brackets, like the forklegs and wheel, have been flipped side-to-side.
So the headlamp adjustment slots are upside down.
Someone didn't read the assembly manual..... !

Since there is nothing to lock the bearing retainers, there is still a possibility they could undo.
Thats why the factory changed this setup for the Mk3 brake on that side.
Prevents lawsuits from owners killing themselves, or worse. ??

3104XX made Nov 73.

whittakers said:

Headlamp bracket ears have a folded edge to them which faces inwards as does the spot welds so can only fit one way.

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Nevertheless, they can still be fitted incorrectly, and it catches a few people out (even a few experts) as the left hand headlamp bracket is fitted upside down on the right side in your photo, and the right hand bracket is presumably USD on the other side.

When the brackets are orientated correctly the slots will be horizontal. The photo shows a left bracket correctly fitted to the bike, the bracket I'm holding is a right hand bracket upside down.

Good point regarding headlamp brackets, never occured to me - they have been like that for 3 sets of ears since 1983 (keep going rusty) though it is difficult to see the slots when the headlamp is bolted up.
Front wheel was oriented that way when I bought the bike in '83 complete with bent stancions and years of corrosion - I don't think the previous owner had swapped it or even cleaned it! Cannot be 100% sure without taking the wheel apart but I don't remember any felt seals or screwed rings so it it possibly a Mk3 hub.

(There are a lot of common areas between 2As and Mk3 - air box, black caps, sealed swinging arm and so on. I wonder if Norton were also starting to fit the Mk3 type front end? The front yokes which didn't look like they had ever been off the back (I later replaced them after a shunt) had the holes in for a seperate brake pipe - like the Mk3. It is also possible that the entire front end was replaced by the boys in blue after a shunt earlier in its life)

If only they could talk to us......

whittakers said:

I don't think the previous owner had swapped it or even cleaned it! Cannot be 100% sure without taking the wheel apart but I don't remember any felt seals or screwed rings so it it possibly a Mk3 hub.(There are a lot of common areas between 2As and Mk3 - air box, black caps, sealed swinging arm and so on. I wonder if Norton were also starting to fit the Mk3 type front end?

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It doesn't look like a MkIII hub.

The MkIII hub has a distinctive groove which isn't apparent on the hub in your photo, so I expect the forks were probably reversed at some point during its history. [Edit] Swapping the forks/brake from right to left supposedly reduces the Commando's tendency to steer or pull to the left. Steve Wilson did mention in his book "Norton Motor Cycles 1950-1980" that some late MkII/IIA models were fitted with a left side front brake, however even the very late production MkII/IIA models seem to have had the standard R/H front brake, however, I'm happy to be proved wrong.

I bought a circlip retainer secondhand front hub to build a spare wheel for my Mk3 and only when I got it home did I see that it had no groove machined on the non-disc side. There were no other differences and the groove was quickly added.

I have no idea if this was a late Mk2 or early Mk3 hub but the lack of a machined groove doesn't appear to be 100% linked to a lockring hub.

I agree with LAB in that the catalogued 2As continued with a right hand disc. There are actually quite a lot of parts involved in the conversion, including rigid brake pipes and brackets etc. It's not just a matter of reversing existing components.

Looked again at the bike, its funny how you think you know something, and yes the headlamp brackets are upside down. My bad!
(hey, they can stay that way until I next strip the yokes)
As I pointed out previously the bike came to me with the disc on the nearside, had what I believe to be all the correct fitting for that layout, and judging by the condition of the bike when I bought it had not been swapped by either of the previous non-police owners.

Just to collate the numbers so far:

3104xx 11.73
3110xx 12.73
3111xx 12.73
312xxx 02.74
3144xx 03.74?
3149xx 05.74

So currently my engine looks to be March 74.
Still not sure about the frame though.

whittakers said:

So currently my engine looks to be March 74.
Still not sure about the frame though.

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I think only Andover Norton could possibly give you more information-if you are lucky.

Just got a reply back from the Norton Owners Club who have trawled through their records. They confirm that the engine number dates from April 74, which would seem to tie in with other data. Regarding the frame number they reckon it is not uncommon to have the Farina frame numbers out of sync and it could therefore be the original engine/ frame partnership. Also the red chassis plate would not usually have been fitted to the headstock on Interpol or JPN models because of the fairing clamp fitment though the plate should have (though may not have) been fitted somewhere else.
Hope this info helps and thanks to you all for your input.

Mark