Confirmation that I am a dinosaur of a biker

Mart UK said:

I toured Wales and Scotland last year on the latest Softail Slim. A well built bike, I thought. It broadly kept up, but it was hard work, hard on the tyres and I had to repaint the underside of both frame tubes, before I sold it. Incredibly comfortable on straighter roads though.

Click to expand...

I love the Softail Slim but just could not live with that restricted lean angle !

Hi all,
im not too sure where this thread has come from/ is going to?
Harleys are Harleys. I’m sure that modern HDs perform totally adequately for what is required of them. No one is entering them into the Isle of Man TT race so whether their performance is acceptable is up to the purchaser to decide. They are certainly fit for purpose in giving the most law abiding accountant the feeling that they are actually are rebel without a cause and a wild eyed lone wolf (Peter Fonda has a lot to answer for), a tattoo and a testosterone injection would be cheaper but if it works for them…..!
For most people the image of the bike is equally important as the actually performance the bike delivers. Meet Ducati owners, most are probably as enamoured with it’s Italian exotica connections, noise and European verve as they are with their actual performance. Everyone deep down thinks they’re the equal of Rossi or Agostini. The owners I know seem to base their entire conversation around how much the bike cost, how few were built and the warp speed they achieved on some godforsaken bit of road somewhere but good luck to them. The majority probably never come close to approaching the perfo their bikes are capable of.
Whether we like it or not, us pommie tragics also are buying into an image, the difference being that you probably need a lot more knowledge of bikes and their place in history to buy a 50 year old bike from a long dead manufacturer than to write a cheque for a brand new Ducati or Harley and get it serviced by the shop at it’s recommended intervals.
Of course us dinosaurs aren’t subject to modern marketing when we buy a Norton. Norton’s advertising, like the beautiful girls that straddled them in the brochures is a bit past it’s use by date nowadays.
I do suspect that on average us Norton owners ride our bikes closer to the limit of their performance than does the Ducati owner does to theirs.
And as for the vast majority of Harley owners, they probably don’t come close to their rather limited overall performance/ handling package. They are more than happy listening to the ‘potato, potato’ of the exhaust and admire themselves in shop windows as they ride past. And who is to say that that is not as valid as us pretending we‘re still ‘blue blood greaser boys’ from the Ton Up club racing up to the Ace Cafe for a bit of tea & crumpet

When it comes to either giving out waves or receiving them back, well, it’s a storm in a tea cup. The only way we can know another biker didnt wave first is by not waving to them. A zero sum game. Let’s just pretend they were about to wave but we got the wave in first. Nevertheless, how a modern Harley owner could have any delusions of grandeur and await our affirmation of their elite status before deigning to acknowledge our existence, is beyond me. They just bought the dam thing out of the show room. In spite of what they might like to think, the ghosts of William Harley and Arthur Davidson didn’t actually materialise to personally tailor a bike to their needs because they’re such committed ‘one percenters’ bikers. Rather, their ‘custom, limited edition, special bike’ was simply ‘parts bin’ engineered into a package that that the marketing people decided would enable them to charge a considerable premium on above the standard bike. I must say that HD does a much better job of this than Norton did with either their High Rider or beautiful but poorly executed JPN replica.
Who waves to who and when, who cares? I always raise a polite finger off my grip in acknowledgment of passing bikes and always say hello when pulling in at petrol stations etc. I suppose deep down I’m as guilty as the rest, riding a Commando I feel I really don’t have to prove a thing and if you do want to have a bit of a stouch on an appropriate bit of road ,I’m not going to be intimidated by the fact I’m giving away half a century of development.
Just a few random thoughts
Alan

I'm going to chime in here and suggest that modern riders are not much different from modern drivers. Most are not really interested in how their car or bike works or its history. I have a number of vintage bikes and still do modern sport touring. The average rider you would find at say deals gap is not really interested in history. On the other hand, a vintage biker or classic car enthusiast is usually interested in almost any vintage mechanical device whether it be car, bike, tractor or gasoline powered jackhammer. In my experience, any rider interested in vintage things will think almost any vintage bike is cool.

I rode my Matchless G12 on saturday including to the local cars and coffee. It gathered interest but not as much as bikes that I had previously ridden that were somewhat more familiar to the crowd. On the other hand I was at Wheels though Time in April and any pre electric start bike would be considered cool by the vintage riders there. One bike I ride is a '75 Superglide. Modern riders, whether on HD or Japanese never give it a second look.

I consider the lack of interest in vintage iron to be similar to a lack of interest in history. Each of my bikes has a story and it is the story that is part of the coolness factor. But I also have a real interest in history. If you don't have an interest in history, you probably don'tcare about vintage vehicles, be they cars or bikes. I do not think this has much to do about what you ride but instead on you interest in older things.

My old bikes have much more soul than modern bikes and I prefer to ride them on shorter rides. On the other hand give me the comfort of a modern bike if I am going to travel longer distances.

Best to all. Keep our history alive by riding it.

As Alan said I will give a nod of the head or lift my finger up from the hand grip, I don't take my hands off the handle bars just to give another biker a wave as they go past, I enjoy my riding time and if I waved to every biker that rode past in the other direction I wouldn't be enjoying my ride and losing concentration in what happening around me and in front of me you never going to see them again unless you ride on the same road at the same time every time you go out, and if you don't wave, do you think they will turn around and chase you down and say "hey man you didn't wave to me when I past you when I gave you a wave" no that's never going to happen, well it hasn't happened to me in the last 49 years of riding.
As for what bikes we choose to ride and own, I really couldn't give a dam we all have our likes and of course with friends we put sh.t on each other to our choice or how hard they are going to ride them and I am not going to go up to a 1% outlaw club member and say to his face "hey man your Harley is a piece of sh.t", as long as it has two wheels and a motor I don't care.
Am I a dinosaur, no I am a old school biker who enjoys his bikes, his riding mates and have met a lot of strangers who have the same love of two wheels and have made plenty of friendships on the way, if you have broken down on the side of the road someone will always stop to help as most riders are friendly people and some do have attitude, it all part of life, its how you handle it.

Ashley

Hi all (again),
Some interesting thoughts on history. All true. I guess it’s worth teasing them out a little further so for the sake of this blurb, let’s look at the average purchaser of a Norton or Triumph etc in the late 60s, to keep it simple say in the UK.
For a start, the cost of a new machine was incredible for the average young blue collar lad. Unlike today, probably few bought a top shelf Commando or similar on a whim or because it would be cool to cruise around on a Sunday morning. It required commitment, fettling skills and enthusiasm. Lots of scrimping , saving and hours spent doing overtime at the factory to walk into the showroom and ride out on a Fastback. Presumably the young lad had a strong interest in motorcycle sport, had hankered for one since childhood. He had probably had outgrown his Bantam or other smaller single and lovingly stared at the new models as they arrived. He collected the brochures and could recite the performance figures of his preferred bike and how it prevailed over the competition. The 750 commando was the end goal of a long held dream and he probably lived the counter-cultural life style that went with it. Being a Rocker wasn’t for everyone!
As a working class Pom (and absolutely no offence is meant by this), he was not worldly, he probably didn’t know what was happening in the next village, let alone county or internationally. Chances are he lived with mum and dad in a ‘two up two down’, shagged a girl called Cindy by the gas works wall and lived in fear of getting her in the family way . By today‘s standards he wasn’t highly educated and was very parochial. It is therefore not surprising that this fostered a huge degree of tribalism and brand loyalty (think football hooligan of the 70s). He not only owned the bike, he lived the life (excuse the exclusive use of the masculine pronoun but I suspect very few females rode high capacity bikes 50 years ago). He probably couldn’t of told you who Napoleon’s Bonaparte was but he could tell you every production change on a Norton since the Dominator was introduced.
Harley have carved out a very interesting niche for itself or perhaps I should say dug themselves a very deep hole. Primarily relying on image for sales and for many years being relegated to the rather unprofitable role of bike of choice for the outlaw bike gangs, they have reinvented themselves as a civilised cruiser that relies on it’s perceived image to the non rider whilst being difficult to develop beyond it’s paradigm without loosing it’s iconic V Twin, potato potato appeal. This leaves it vulnerable to be replaced by better built and performing Japanese look alikes by those young enough not to be influenced by Easy Rider.
In comparison, with today’s large disposable income and the high level comfort and reliability, performance bikes are accessible to everyone, even those with only a minor interest in the riding as such but do enjoy the ‘wind in the hair’ and the kudos of leather jacket and carefree image. I guess historically Honda would claim to have been the first to offer the easy living, universality accessible (and acceptable) bike in the guise of the 750/4.
Very few people today would buy a Commando today because it looks neat or triggers some deep cultural memory of snarling performanc. If they did, the first oil leak or flooded carb would have them scuttling back to a modern retro-bike that would be far more suited to their needs. And anyway, as I mentioned previously, motorcycle manufacturers spend squillions on marketing not only their bikes but the image that comes with them.
So who is left to buy our old Norton’s, BSAs and Trumpys? Just us old farts who can still remember the ‘Glory Days’ (at 63 I’m actually a little young to fall into this category) and people with an interest in the history of the 20th century and heroic materialism in particular. I guess we are a dying breed and probably thank Christ for that.
Al

Took the MK 111 to the Ont. Norton owners sponsored meet up at flying Squirrel Toronto last Wknd.
4 Commandos. A few other modern bikes there , but they only wanted to talk about their new stuff.
Totally unlike driving around town daily where I am accustomed to compliments and chatter and old boy bike stories. Go figure. Off fishing on the Norton again tomorrow with sleeping bag and tent on back.

The Commando fits right in with the current "retro" fad wherein young folks seem to think that anything their parents do or did when young is embarrassing but anything their grandparents/great grandparents did is cool!

OTOH, I can't imagine that any of us would recommend to a young rider that they buy a Norton Commando as opposed to a modern bike that does everything better/safer and requires almost no maintenance in comparison...

Alan , while you a very good writer with large vocabulary , just not sure exactly what your point / points are …. I have a few yrs on you in age and ride time , owned rode Commando for many years , also have owned and rode lots of other brands including a couple Ducati , one of which is now my main ride , non of my of bikes have ever been to shop for any reason , other than their wheels when I have the younger set do the heavy lifting fitting new tires …. always make sure any bike I have will go the ton but I’m no speedster anymore , but I sure do still get a kick out riding far fast …. have a good one !

I think you'll find people with differing attitudes in all walks of life.....
I cycle the seawall and towpaths daily, with a polite 'Good Morning' to most that I meet. Responses vary from those pleased to be acknowledged. to those that look at you as if you've just asked to molest their first born!
As the old saying goes: 'N'owt so queer as folk!'

Aging demographics. Model T Fords are nearly worthless. Old dudes getting older.

re. "retro", someone did make that comment to me, not sure if it was looking at the Commando or my T140. I did point out that my bike isnt "retro", its the real thing.....

Alan L said:

Hi all,
im not too sure where this thread has come from/ is going to?
Harleys are Harleys. I’m sure that modern HDs perform totally adequately for what is required of them. No one is entering them into the Isle of Man TT race so whether their performance is acceptable is up to the purchaser to decide. They are certainly fit for purpose in giving the most law abiding accountant the feeling that they are actually are rebel without a cause and a wild eyed lone wolf (Peter Fonda has a lot to answer for), a tattoo and a testosterone injection would be cheaper but if it works for them…..!
For most people the image of the bike is equally important as the actually performance the bike delivers. Meet Ducati owners, most are probably as enamoured with it’s Italian exotica connections, noise and European verve as they are with their actual performance. Everyone deep down thinks they’re the equal of Rossi or Agostini. The owners I know seem to base their entire conversation around how much the bike cost, how few were built and the warp speed they achieved on some godforsaken bit of road somewhere but good luck to them. The majority probably never come close to approaching the perfo their bikes are capable of.
Whether we like it or not, us pommie tragics also are buying into an image, the difference being that you probably need a lot more knowledge of bikes and their place in history to buy a 50 year old bike from a long dead manufacturer than to write a cheque for a brand new Ducati or Harley and get it serviced by the shop at it’s recommended intervals.
Of course us dinosaurs aren’t subject to modern marketing when we buy a Norton. Norton’s advertising, like the beautiful girls that straddled them in the brochures is a bit past it’s use by date nowadays.
I do suspect that on average us Norton owners ride our bikes closer to the limit of their performance than does the Ducati owner does to theirs.
And as for the vast majority of Harley owners, they probably don’t come close to their rather limited overall performance/ handling package. They are more than happy listening to the ‘potato, potato’ of the exhaust and admire themselves in shop windows as they ride past. And who is to say that that is not as valid as us pretending we‘re still ‘blue blood greaser boys’ from the Ton Up club racing up to the Ace Cafe for a bit of tea & crumpet

When it comes to either giving out waves or receiving them back, well, it’s a storm in a tea cup. The only way we can know another biker didnt wave first is by not waving to them. A zero sum game. Let’s just pretend they were about to wave but we got the wave in first. Nevertheless, how a modern Harley owner could have any delusions of grandeur and await our affirmation of their elite status before deigning to acknowledge our existence, is beyond me. They just bought the dam thing out of the show room. In spite of what they might like to think, the ghosts of William Harley and Arthur Davidson didn’t actually materialise to personally tailor a bike to their needs because they’re such committed ‘one percenters’ bikers. Rather, their ‘custom, limited edition, special bike’ was simply ‘parts bin’ engineered into a package that that the marketing people decided would enable them to charge a considerable premium on above the standard bike. I must say that HD does a much better job of this than Norton did with either their High Rider or beautiful but poorly executed JPN replica.
Who waves to who and when, who cares? I always raise a polite finger off my grip in acknowledgment of passing bikes and always say hello when pulling in at petrol stations etc. I suppose deep down I’m as guilty as the rest, riding a Commando I feel I really don’t have to prove a thing and if you do want to have a bit of a stouch on an appropriate bit of road ,I’m not going to be intimidated by the fact I’m giving away half a century of development.
Just a few random thoughts
Alan

Click to expand...

Well said.

You mean a 2022 Harley can actually outrun, out corner, and out accelerate my 1973 Commando? Our pair of mid '00s Harley couldn't. When did HD make that performance breakthrough?

Accepting that we were Dino-bikers, my wife and I bought a pair of them (first time) in '05. I thought I might give up my life-long love of sports/superbikes. The HDs were the most disappointing Motos I ever rode. I sold mine in 6 months; wife sold hers a couple of months later. The one BIG thing in favor of HD: we sold them for more than we paid for them! None of the other bikes we've owned could even remotely approach that sort of resale value...closer to half what we paid!

In reality, it seems like the vast majority of bikers today are dino-bikers - old folks - the opposite of what it was when I was young, when almost nobody of "parenting age" would consider riding a motorcycle. My dad forbade me riding them "...as long as you live in this house!" Only hooligans and drug addicts rode them...

MexicoMike said:

You mean a 2022 Harley can actually outrun, out corner, and out accelerate my 1973 Commando? Our pair of mid '00s Harley couldn't. When did HD make that performance breakthrough?

Click to expand...

Largely depends which Harley you’re talking about and which roads.

As I own a HD and a Commando, I can comment in a way that discounts rider difference. And bias.

On a racetrack a well prepared Commando would win every time. Obviously.

On a tight twisty English B roads, the Commando will win most of the time. Of course the Commando has tighter, more responsive handling, which pays off here.

On a faster flowing A roads, the HD will win every time. The HDs handling is actually fine here (when you’ve adjusted to it) albeit requiring more effort. But it can carry surprising corner speed, and more importantly, it’s huge mid range grunt simply puts it ahead to a point the Commandos better handling cannot close the gap.

On motorways, the HD would be my choice every time. Far more relaxing, far more dependable, and the huge grunt gives instant, effortless overtake-ability.

But my HD is a (slightly modified) 2016 Dyna Low Rider S. So it’s as close as a HD gets to a ‘normal’ motorcycle package and having a performance focus, and has a stonkin’ 110” (1.8 litre) engine.

Something like a new Fat Boy would lose to the Commando everytime, everywhere as the handling deficiencies are just too great for any amount of mid range grunt to compensate for.

I think the Commando does both road types better than a HD will. It can go on the lanes to the Mway. Not perfectly but it will do it. HD on the lanes...not such a fun ride.
There really is no question as to why moderns are the typical riders choice. And mind, a sensible one at that. Our old bikes are fun for us but the future for us and for them is pretty dim.

While it may have drifted ( perhaps evolved is better? )from the original topic I am really enjoying this discourse. A lot of thought provoking comments /opinions and valid given the collective years of experience of the authors.
Most of us want validation. Harley fans want their brand , Norton fans want their brand , BMW fans want theirs , etc.
I’ll wave to all regardless of brand but it has become a game to see how many of the HD set wave back . They feel smug on their rides and I feel smug on mine . I bristle when some of that group disparages other makes , Honda in particular. I love to point out that in the mid sixties Honda produced , among others ,
the RC 166 and they did so without benefit of CAD and CAM .
Slide rules and drafting tables and hand wheels on the lathe and mill . I believe HD would be hard pressed to create something similar today.
But it falls on deaf ears - most have sipped the kool aid .
In the interest of full disclosure let me state I recognize my own hypocrisy regarding this sort of thing . I like what I like regardless of some of the shortcomings. The mind is a strange thing at times .
As an example of the above mentioned hypocrisy I dislike jet skis .
I have lived my entire life ( 69 years and counting) on a barrier island and I find them annoying and disruptive of the marine environment and yet for many years I joyfully blasted through the pines on all manor of two stroke dirt bikes . I often wonder if the psychiatric profession will one day be able to quantify why we like one thing and not another when they are so similar.
I suppose the best we can do at times is agree to disagree.
But I do love this banter - keep it coming gents !
RT

Fast Eddie said:

Largely depends which Harley you’re talking about and which roads.

As I own a HD and a Commando, I can comment in a way that discounts rider difference. And bias.

On a racetrack a well prepared Commando would win every time. Obviously.

On a tight twisty English B roads, the Commando will win most of the time. Of course the Commando has tighter, more responsive handling, which pays off here.

On a faster flowing A roads, the HD will win every time. The HDs handling is actually fine here (when you’ve adjusted to it) albeit requiring more effort. But it can carry surprising corner speed, and more importantly, it’s huge mid range grunt simply puts it ahead to a point the Commandos better handling cannot close the gap.

On motorways, the HD would be my choice every time. Far more relaxing, far more dependable, and the huge grunt gives instant, effortless overtake-ability.

But my HD is a (slightly modified) 2016 Dyna Low Rider S. So it’s as close as a HD gets to a ‘normal’ motorcycle package and having a performance focus, and has a stonkin’ 110” (1.8 litre) engine.

Something like a new Fat Boy would lose to the Commando everytime, everywhere as the handling deficiencies are just too great for any amount of mid range grunt to compensate for.

Click to expand...

It doesn't sound like you are a typical Harley rider Nigel
And I realize using the term "typical Harley rider" is in itself wrong but it will have to do
I'd imagine Harley's these days must be capable machines
Some of my mates own them and they too don't fall into the "typical " group
I can remember them fitting all the latest Japanese running gear in them in the late 80s early 90s
3 spoke mags, upside downies etc etc
There will always be a lot of banter between bike riding groups of people
I do find it funny when I see a Harley group ride with a bloke wearing a hi Vis with "hog leader" emblazoned upon it
And riding 10mph under the speed limit ?
But everyone is different and that's a good thing

baz said:

It doesn't sound like you are a typical Harley rider Nigel
And I realize using the term "typical Harley rider" is in itself wrong but it will have to do
I'd imagine Harley's these days must be capable machines
Some of my mates own them and they too don't fall into the "typical " group
I can remember them fitting all the latest Japanese running gear in them in the late 80s early 90s
3 spoke mags, upside downies etc etc
There will always be a lot of banter between bike riding groups of people
I do find it funny when I see a Harley group ride with a bloke wearing a hi Vis with "hog leader" emblazoned upon it
And riding 10mph under the speed limit ?
But everyone is different and that's a good thing

Click to expand...

Check out YouTube for the stunt riding community in the USA. Young kids on tricked out Harley Dyna’s doing outrageous stunts. It’s really impressive. And very surprising !

I’m no stunt rider, but I like to ‘make progress’ on the road.

My Dyna has 1 1/4” taller Ohlins shocks and Avon tyres which help the handling a lot. Next is Ohlins fork cartridges and Brembo brakes. Then engine work, but that’s another story.

My point is… ‘the typical Harley rider’… the thought of becoming one or even being associated with them put me off buying a HD for years!

And that was silly, mine is the most fun bike I’ve had in a very long time. A real feel good / smile inducing machine. And I nearly didn’t buy one simply cos if the stereotyping. Now that would have been a shame.

Fast Eddie said:

Largely depends which Harley you’re talking about and which roads.

As I own a HD and a Commando, I can comment in a way that discounts rider difference. And bias.

On a racetrack a well prepared Commando would win every time. Obviously.

On a tight twisty English B roads, the Commando will win most of the time. Of course the Commando has tighter, more responsive handling, which pays off here.

On a faster flowing A roads, the HD will win every time. The HDs handling is actually fine here (when you’ve adjusted to it) albeit requiring more effort. But it can carry surprising corner speed, and more importantly, it’s huge mid range grunt simply puts it ahead to a point the Commandos better handling cannot close the gap.

On motorways, the HD would be my choice every time. Far more relaxing, far more dependable, and the huge grunt gives instant, effortless overtake-ability.

But my HD is a (slightly modified) 2016 Dyna Low Rider S. So it’s as close as a HD gets to a ‘normal’ motorcycle package and having a performance focus, and has a stonkin’ 110” (1.8 litre) engine.

Something like a new Fat Boy would lose to the Commando everytime, everywhere as the handling deficiencies are just too great for any amount of mid range grunt to compensate for.

Click to expand...

Your Commando is much higher performance than a stock bike.
How would your modern Harley compare to a stock Commando?
I suspect a bone stock Commando would need very twisty roads to keep up with a well ridden Dyna.

Richard Tool said:

Most of us want validation. Harley fans want their brand , Norton fans want their brand , BMW fans want theirs , etc.

Click to expand...

I find that I have a greater appreciation for all brands of motorcycles than i did maybe 20 years ago. Validation goes both ways - in order to receive, you need to give as well. If you are riding something that you are passionate about, I will comment and appreciate it.

I wave at everyone - if you are out in the open on less than 4 wheels, I will acknowledge you. If you choose not to acknowledge me, so be it. Life is about choices. I make mine, you make yours.