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grandpaul said:
Well grandpaul, that is incredibly lame and insensitive.
Lighten up everyone, it's one persons perspective.
An Opinion
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Well grandpaul, that is incredibly lame and insensitive.
Lighten up everyone, it's one persons perspective.
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hobot said:
Wow, and look at that balloon tire corner cripple. :lol:
Ding, ding, ding...........Reality check.
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Stability, acceleration, top speed are important.
There are a couple of comments by "golden era" aces, I think it was Jack Ahern (Australian works Norton rider) who said that the IOM circuit was full bore in top, just about everywhere. This on a bike that would do 130/140mph. For my money the greatest ever TT rider, Mike Hailwood, reckoned that 70bhp was just about optimum for the IOM.
There is some truth that possibly in the World Championship era some works riders would have been pressured to ride. These days that pressure has gone away. However competition is a constant.
cheers
wakeup
There are a couple of comments by "golden era" aces, I think it was Jack Ahern (Australian works Norton rider) who said that the IOM circuit was full bore in top, just about everywhere. This on a bike that would do 130/140mph. For my money the greatest ever TT rider, Mike Hailwood, reckoned that 70bhp was just about optimum for the IOM.
There is some truth that possibly in the World Championship era some works riders would have been pressured to ride. These days that pressure has gone away. However competition is a constant.
cheers
wakeup
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But they dont spay thew roads with acid , these days . ( or was it Lime .)
Despite six spark plug changes, two stops to shorten the drive belt and a puncture repair, Rem Fowler piloted the 1907 Norton over the acid-sprayed dirt roads of the Isle to claim a piece of moto-racing history.
appears we're forgetting about improvements in Spark Plugs , too .
( this thing should do a easy 100 mph lap , on modern tyres & brakes . :shock: 8) :lol: )
Despite six spark plug changes, two stops to shorten the drive belt and a puncture repair, Rem Fowler piloted the 1907 Norton over the acid-sprayed dirt roads of the Isle to claim a piece of moto-racing history.
appears we're forgetting about improvements in Spark Plugs , too .
( this thing should do a easy 100 mph lap , on modern tyres & brakes . :shock: 8) :lol:
)
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Still counter steering because not able to put down or lean far enough the bike falls over on its own so instantly flips into more effective sharper straight steering. IFhe put down hobot power in that posture-position-condition his bike would let him down, but if he'd get the knee out the way and rush in faster he could just goose the throttle to steer by step outs with more hook up acceleration time available between the step outs so ends up leaving turn in next higher gear faster fling...
Dear Dances I am banned from a corner school because of taking balloon tire cripples down that far till pegs folds up pinching foot out then rubbing knee unless I stretched leg back and put foot on axle nut then further still till the chin fairing grinding off >>> then really giving some throttle to see what happens >>> next>>> which was what freaked them out as that low down is merely the end of coutnersteering not the end of putting down mo power out of there in a real hurry. Its what I have to do on THE Gravel and that requires out powering and out accelerating on purpose crashing ahead of time, w/o drifting or sliding, very much, tire widths only. One of the hi points of my risk taking was my first hi speed tarmac track break free. I thot I could never experience such wild thrills again till Peel was straining me even harder, for *OMG* = I had to see what happened next **OMG** its driven me out of my mind.
Modern racers been clocked into & out of turns faster than 125's and bigger vintage racers, because they have advanced so far from rubber to digi controls. I KNOW moderns are better in turns than vintage what ever but not that much more compared to the rocketry in the opens. I do not know if Peels torque to mass and hp to to resistance is enough to stay ahead of them in the opens yet. But.
I have found their innate weaknesses and see it repeated in every mag review by racers to editors taking them to limits. If you want to impress hobot you got to show me wheelies with knee tucked tight to tank for clearance and air under front tires d/t the harsh apex direction reversals. If ya know anyone else itching to have a magazine show down with elites vs an isolastic smoothie that HooKs UP I"m all ears.
Back on the subject, I am still more impressed with the ancient feats after what I've had to do to control a untamed Cdo or a Bonnieville or an H2 just having a thrill, ugh. I now refuse to do it on them clunkers or moderns. Someday hope to demo why i have more fun.
Dear Dances I am banned from a corner school because of taking balloon tire cripples down that far till pegs folds up pinching foot out then rubbing knee unless I stretched leg back and put foot on axle nut then further still till the chin fairing grinding off >>> then really giving some throttle to see what happens >>> next>>> which was what freaked them out as that low down is merely the end of coutnersteering not the end of putting down mo power out of there in a real hurry. Its what I have to do on THE Gravel and that requires out powering and out accelerating on purpose crashing ahead of time, w/o drifting or sliding, very much, tire widths only. One of the hi points of my risk taking was my first hi speed tarmac track break free. I thot I could never experience such wild thrills again till Peel was straining me even harder, for *OMG* = I had to see what happened next **OMG** its driven me out of my mind.
Modern racers been clocked into & out of turns faster than 125's and bigger vintage racers, because they have advanced so far from rubber to digi controls. I KNOW moderns are better in turns than vintage what ever but not that much more compared to the rocketry in the opens. I do not know if Peels torque to mass and hp to to resistance is enough to stay ahead of them in the opens yet. But.
I have found their innate weaknesses and see it repeated in every mag review by racers to editors taking them to limits. If you want to impress hobot you got to show me wheelies with knee tucked tight to tank for clearance and air under front tires d/t the harsh apex direction reversals. If ya know anyone else itching to have a magazine show down with elites vs an isolastic smoothie that HooKs UP I"m all ears.
Back on the subject, I am still more impressed with the ancient feats after what I've had to do to control a untamed Cdo or a Bonnieville or an H2 just having a thrill, ugh. I now refuse to do it on them clunkers or moderns. Someday hope to demo why i have more fun.
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Matt Spencer said:appears we're forgetting about improvements in Spark Plugs , too .
Interesting comments, Matty.
Quite relevant, motoring sure ain't what it used to be.
(Why would they spray the roads with acid ??)
Great pic too, don't think I've seen that one before. Thanks.
Matt Spencer said:
Perhaps not - if you look closely, the inlet valves don't have a cam, or pushrods. !!!!!
Or anything along those lines.
And thats how they built em.
That might limit the speed, a bit.
Imagine how fast he could have been if all the engine was there.... !
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Sucktion intake valve engines are common at the hit and rallyes. Many of these had cast iron pistons too with a bridge under the wrist pin to support the crown from collaspsing d/t the heat weakening.
Yeah even my wife knows to use power to help going around sharper. I got this one pretty much down pat and what it means is must slow up enough before leaning so on high throttle before ya start the lean so can be accelerating the whole time around with one main strain tensioning the suspension & frame, not risky less effective trail braking > because they know they are going too fast to make the turn otherwise, do'h. Best moderns can lift rear trail breaking but that is still braking in zone I want to be maxing out acceleration.
No need tat'all to limit the elites to really test a bikes metal, just match em up on a track the top speeds are similar, like say Barbers. I ain't ignoring the pure power/mass factor nor fat tire heat absorbing factors either but there's a knack to travel THE Gravel with spirit w/o undue tire wear and its exactly the same on pavement only easier to control inbetwee tire melt and tire shred, either of which means less shoving around. The secret about going beyond traction w/o sliding is ballaistic ricochets, the reverse of normal style of point to shoot, its shoot to point
Yeah even my wife knows to use power to help going around sharper. I got this one pretty much down pat and what it means is must slow up enough before leaning so on high throttle before ya start the lean so can be accelerating the whole time around with one main strain tensioning the suspension & frame, not risky less effective trail braking > because they know they are going too fast to make the turn otherwise, do'h. Best moderns can lift rear trail breaking but that is still braking in zone I want to be maxing out acceleration.
No need tat'all to limit the elites to really test a bikes metal, just match em up on a track the top speeds are similar, like say Barbers. I ain't ignoring the pure power/mass factor nor fat tire heat absorbing factors either but there's a knack to travel THE Gravel with spirit w/o undue tire wear and its exactly the same on pavement only easier to control inbetwee tire melt and tire shred, either of which means less shoving around. The secret about going beyond traction w/o sliding is ballaistic ricochets, the reverse of normal style of point to shoot, its shoot to point
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hobot said:
Or maybe counter steering as he is still turning in and has more to go!
hobot said:
aka failed to heed instructors instructions combined with crashing. Ya think.
Really interesting twist on what happened.
Ding, ding, ding. Reality check deux.
Reminds me of a bar maid in Elizabeth, NJ many moons ago where a patron who was a bit off and playing with his tongue while ogling patrons; she simply raised her voice and said "If you don't start making sense right now I'm cutting you off!" In that instance it worked.
grandpaul
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Dances with Shrapnel said:
I am referring to being raked over the coals simply for taking my kids for a ride on a motorcycle, even when I put a proper-fitting helmet on, etc.
My son and I had a car run a stop sign and clobber us (both with helmets); he got a small cut on one of his eyelids, I thought my parents were going to have me jailed.
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Fair enough Grandpaul, fair enough. That bit of background information would have been helpful for context but fair enough.
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hobot said:
Indeed.
And pretty much all engines prior to the mid to late 1920s had iron pistons.
Alloy pistons hadn't been developed enough to be reliable yet, mostly.
Some of them (pistons) were pretty heavy - but those engines were mostly slow revving, and having a heavy piston saved a bit of weight in the flywheel dept, and made good use of the available torque. From ultra low revs in some cases - heavy flywheels/pistons makes the most of this.
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Rohan said:
So how does a heavy piston enhance anything in a reciprocating piston engine?
I have always thought that there was nothing to be gained (but durability) by using a heavier piston.
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Since the OP asked for an opinion, I think going WFO on any bike from any era is equally deserving and the comment by Mike the Bike that 70Hp is all the island could take is to be taken in context since at that time, chassis, tires, frames, brakes... were at the point where that was all they could handle.
Good riders now go faster on production motorcycles than GP riders went on full tilt factory bikes of the sixties or seventies because the bikes are that much better, in all respects.
Jean
Good riders now go faster on production motorcycles than GP riders went on full tilt factory bikes of the sixties or seventies because the bikes are that much better, in all respects.
Jean
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Dances with Shrapnel said:
Haven't ridden it (yet), but have a basketcase belt-drive Triumph (gasp), and its piston and flywheel weight a ton.
Maybe not literally, but they are HEAVY. The piston is remarkably solid = heavy.
And apparently would pull strongly from VERY low rpm.
(as you have to, with no gears and no clutch, effectively one speed gearing. )
Heavy flywheel and heavy piston were part of that equation - damps out the torque pulses, very effectively apparently.
And the Triumph of that era was said to be the best of the single cylinders, very widely copied design.
They won the 1908 TT with it too, faster time than previous year... ?
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Rohan does have hairs on his chest , after all . He DOES own a TRIUMPH . 8) :wink:
Thought the ' 100 mph ' dig would get a responce , from someone we wont mention . :wink:
inferance , was more ' in that general direction ' . Certainly the smoother roads arnt going to make it any more difficult .
Pistons , well , in a 90 degree V twin , heavy ones would increase rotational inertia .
" In 1912 W.O. joined his brother Horace Millner Bentley in a company called "Bentley and Bentley" selling French DFP cars. "
" On a trip to the DFP factory in France he noticed an aluminium piston being used as a paperweight by one of the company directors. He adapted his own DFPs with this revolutionary material and drove them to one racing triumph after another. Indeed, these lightweight pistons quickly became the “secret ingredient” of Bentley success with his conservative competitors continuing to regard aluminium as too weak to withstand the inferno of the engine block. "
Note , the ' aluminum piston ' was just an oddity ( ashtray / ) and not an operational component , on discovery . ( thought picture worth incudeing . )
" A twenty-two year old obsessed by speed and its potential for changing the world. An engineering genius with an intuitive grasp of the dynamics of the amazing new internal combustion engine. Put those images together with a precocious visionary who believed nothing was impossible and you have some sense of W.O. Bentley on the brink of creating a legend in his name. And just one more thing. He liked to win. "
" At the outbreak of the Great War (1914-18), 'Captain' Bentley designed two new aero engines - BR1 and BR2 (Bentley Rotary) incorporating pistons made of aluminum, which he had fitted to his DFP racing cars. The Bentley aircraft engines became regarded as the most reliable then available "
A rotary engine installed in a Camel.
And a Monosoupape Gnome . " Much beloved because it had so few parts and thus less weight and less to go wrong. " :shock:
Biggum Injuns . http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread. ... ft-engines
, after all . He DOES own a TRIUMPH . 8) :wink: Thought the ' 100 mph ' dig would get a responce , from someone we wont mention . :wink:
inferance , was more ' in that general direction ' . Certainly the smoother roads arnt going to make it any more difficult .
Pistons , well , in a 90 degree V twin , heavy ones would increase rotational inertia .
" In 1912 W.O. joined his brother Horace Millner Bentley in a company called "Bentley and Bentley" selling French DFP cars. "
" On a trip to the DFP factory in France he noticed an aluminium piston being used as a paperweight by one of the company directors. He adapted his own DFPs with this revolutionary material and drove them to one racing triumph after another. Indeed, these lightweight pistons quickly became the “secret ingredient” of Bentley success with his conservative competitors continuing to regard aluminium as too weak to withstand the inferno of the engine block. "
Note , the ' aluminum piston ' was just an oddity ( ashtray / ) and not an operational component , on discovery . ( thought picture worth incudeing . )
" A twenty-two year old obsessed by speed and its potential for changing the world. An engineering genius with an intuitive grasp of the dynamics of the amazing new internal combustion engine. Put those images together with a precocious visionary who believed nothing was impossible and you have some sense of W.O. Bentley on the brink of creating a legend in his name. And just one more thing. He liked to win. "
" At the outbreak of the Great War (1914-18), 'Captain' Bentley designed two new aero engines - BR1 and BR2 (Bentley Rotary) incorporating pistons made of aluminum, which he had fitted to his DFP racing cars. The Bentley aircraft engines became regarded as the most reliable then available "
A rotary engine installed in a Camel.
And a Monosoupape Gnome . " Much beloved because it had so few parts and thus less weight and less to go wrong. " :shock:
Biggum Injuns . http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread. ... ft-engines
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Quite so Matt, but car engines are watercooled.
And rotary aircraft engines have a large supply of cooling air rotating about, and a VERY plentiful lube oil supply - blowing out all over you !
Military engines have a VERY short overhaul life.
Wasn't the Merlin initially rated for 20 hours of combat use between overhauls - and that was another era of engines later.
Incidentally, early Camels etc had no throttle control, the carburettor was full throttle all the time, you controlled the speed with
the magneto kill switch - brrrr brrrr brrrr brrrr.
It took the motorcycle world a while longer to adopt alloy pistons that were reliable enough ?
AJS were experimenting with them in the early 1920s - and won the Senior (500cc) TT with a 350 engine
at some point there, the SAME engine that had won the 350cc race.
JAP were still offering iron pistons into the 1930s, and I've seen mentioned that Bedford trucks used them into the 1950s. ?
BTW, those rotary engines you show were said to be heavier than the rest of the aircraft, including the pilot.
With that massive chunk of metal rotating up front, apparently if you let go of the stick at any point, the
torque of the engine would mean the plane would try to rotate around the engine, and do a lightning fast flick turn.
Useful in combat to get away from folks that were shooting at you, but on takeoff a real killer, literally....
And rotary aircraft engines have a large supply of cooling air rotating about, and a VERY plentiful lube oil supply - blowing out all over you !
Military engines have a VERY short overhaul life.
Wasn't the Merlin initially rated for 20 hours of combat use between overhauls - and that was another era of engines later.
Incidentally, early Camels etc had no throttle control, the carburettor was full throttle all the time, you controlled the speed with
the magneto kill switch - brrrr brrrr brrrr brrrr.
It took the motorcycle world a while longer to adopt alloy pistons that were reliable enough ?
AJS were experimenting with them in the early 1920s - and won the Senior (500cc) TT with a 350 engine
at some point there, the SAME engine that had won the 350cc race.
JAP were still offering iron pistons into the 1930s, and I've seen mentioned that Bedford trucks used them into the 1950s. ?
BTW, those rotary engines you show were said to be heavier than the rest of the aircraft, including the pilot.
With that massive chunk of metal rotating up front, apparently if you let go of the stick at any point, the
torque of the engine would mean the plane would try to rotate around the engine, and do a lightning fast flick turn.
Useful in combat to get away from folks that were shooting at you, but on takeoff a real killer, literally....
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The few stories i've read, for example Burt Monroe or Daytona beach runners all seem to have more crashes per outing than on more current tracks and machines. More guts to ride fast on past history than current conditions is hard to contest. Anything with a saddle is stupid to put your seat in so skull and bones images are appropriate to m/c fates. If you ain't got dead friends whispering in you ear before pullling the trigger then maybe ridding an't as exciting as should be.
I rate cycles joys by the G's not the speed so must crank em all down harder and harder till they scare me in upsets, they all have but one. I know how i use throttle and can hear how others do on video, all's I cans say is there's a whole lot of times of these elites are on trailing throttle that is pure lack of music to my ears. Think as you may, I know ego has no place in surviving maxing out on any cycle, exceot the urge for thrill and elation when it works out as predicted. Lack of predictability sums up my low opinion of the elite cycles but raises it greatly for those maxing out on em. I'm not that good but Peel sure was. I ain't crashed yet going around fast but know there's always a first time.
I rate cycles joys by the G's not the speed so must crank em all down harder and harder till they scare me in upsets, they all have but one. I know how i use throttle and can hear how others do on video, all's I cans say is there's a whole lot of times of these elites are on trailing throttle that is pure lack of music to my ears. Think as you may, I know ego has no place in surviving maxing out on any cycle, exceot the urge for thrill and elation when it works out as predicted. Lack of predictability sums up my low opinion of the elite cycles but raises it greatly for those maxing out on em. I'm not that good but Peel sure was. I ain't crashed yet going around fast but know there's always a first time.
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Rohan, Every time a piston goes up the bore of an engine, it reaches the top and reverses. Inertia has a major effect. One of the biggest things you can do to improve engine performance and reliability is to fit stronger but lighter pistons. That is why forged Mahle pistons are used in 500cc Jawa speedway engines. Getting weight off the little end is a good thing.
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Rohan, I suggest you have a spectators' point of view of the IOM. I once ran into a friend of mine at a race meeting, whom I hadn't seen for a long time. He told me he had been away racing on the IOM. I asked him how he liked that. He said ' the first time I went there I did an 84 MPH lap, but if you keep going there you get faster'. He used to ride a 500cc manx, and they didn't call him 'Speed' for nothing, he was a risk taker and a crasher. Jack Ahern did a 100 MPH lap in practice at the TT in 1963. With only 50 BHP, you don't have the luxury of making up time on the straights, it is more about cornering than it is with modern bikes. These days the manxs have trick suspension, great tyres, six speed boxes, extremely reliable motors with perhaps 5 more BHP, so it might be a bit easier. I've had a fair bit of racing experience, however I would still have to get my head straight to race there on ANYTHING. A 100 MPH lap on a manx would be beautiful. If you compare Duke, Surtees, Hailwood or Agositini, and particularly Read with modern riders, I think it would only take any one of them 5 minutes on a modern bike to catch up, and then we'd have a problem. I might be a bit strange, however I believe that motorcycle road racing is generally safe, especially when all riders are up to speed and competent. The IOM is dangerous, there is too much of it to be committed to memory.
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'With that massive chunk of metal rotating up front, apparently if you let go of the stick at any point, the
torque of the engine would mean the plane would try to rotate around the engine, and do a lightning fast flick turn.'
Do you know the term 'precession' which applies to gyroscopes ? The resultant force of turning a heavy gyro is at 90 degrees in a direction which depends on the direction of rotation of the mass. It wasn't a torque effect, that was important in Spitfires where you could turn the plane over onto it's back with the throttle.
torque of the engine would mean the plane would try to rotate around the engine, and do a lightning fast flick turn.'
Do you know the term 'precession' which applies to gyroscopes ? The resultant force of turning a heavy gyro is at 90 degrees in a direction which depends on the direction of rotation of the mass. It wasn't a torque effect, that was important in Spitfires where you could turn the plane over onto it's back with the throttle.