961 sensor thread

[comet]

.... Also the head temp sensor - I had an uprated one fitted last service as the ones they had been using were on the limit of their working temperature spec.

Interesting, there was some discussion about this in October last year:

I spoke to Bosch and they said that it's likely the sensor will get damaged if used beyond its specified temperature range, which is up to 130C. I suppose if it's used in a "normal" application such as measuring the oil/water temperature in an engine, it wouldn't reach that limit. The oil temp on my car has never been above 110C.

So it's back to Tony's point about measuring the actual head temp, and perhaps someone could put a sensor in the oven and see what happens .

So it appears Norton have reviewed this and changed the sensor. Do you have any details for the replacement?

 

[TonyA]

May I also mention the manifold pressure sensor. Rob sent me a replacement last year to fit as they had seen a few failures. Also the head temp sensor -
I had an uprated one fitted last service as the ones they had been using were on the limit of their working temperature spec.

Good news . Are these compatible with the older machine too ? I am inclined to think yes. Thanks for the info. Let us know.

 

[Clive]

Hi - I seem to remember that these are an alternative manufacturer to Bosch - maybe Honeywell. I will try to find out from Max.

 

[Clive]

Apparently the head temp sensor is a Jumo which has a stainless body and a higher temperature rating. Thanks to Max for that.

 

[TonyA]

The reason we purchased Bosch in the first place was because we could not get these from Norton . If we order the new temp sensor from Norton then we will get the Jumo . So thats what I will do. So Clive is the bike working well now ?

 

[comet]

I'm interested to know which Jumo sensor. It was only by looking at the spec of the Bosch one that I could see that the temperature range might be an issue. Looking at the Jumo catalogue I'm assuming it's this one:



As far as I can see, the specification is different (PT100) so the resistance at a given temperature is not the same as the Bosch one (or is it?). If the resistance properties are not the same I assume the ECU data would need to be changed to reflect this.

I could be completely wrong here, I'll defer to the more technically-minded contributors.

 

[Deano]

Getting back to the question of EFI vs carburettors (notice the correct spelling there.! ), the biggest issue I can see with EFI apart from all the potential sensor failures, is the way it's mapped to run lean for emissions compliance etc. At least with carbs you can easily adjust the idle mixture strength & tickover so it doesn't stall in traffic. By any standards, that's pretty poor in this day & age. I've never needed an electric boot on my bikes as much as I do on my 961...

 

[TonyA]

I'm interested to know which Jumo sensor. It was only by looking at the spec of the Bosch one that I could see that the temperature range might be an issue. Looking at the Jumo catalogue I'm assuming it's this one:

View attachment 11667

As far as I can see, the specification is different (PT100) so the resistance at a given temperature is not the same as the Bosch one (or is it?). If the resistance properties are not the same I assume the ECU data would need to be changed to reflect this.

I could be completely wrong here, I'll defer to the more technically-minded contributors.[/QUOTE

Hello Comet , Good Find thanks for the info . I will buy mine from Norton UK . Thank you !

 

[Fast Eddie]

Getting back to the question of EFI vs carburettors (notice the correct spelling there.! ), the biggest issue I can see with EFI apart from all the potential sensor failures, is the way it's mapped to run lean for emissions compliance etc. At least with carbs you can easily adjust the idle mixture strength & tickover so it doesn't stall in traffic. By any standards, that's pretty poor in this day & age. I've never needed an electric boot on my bikes as much as I do on my 961...

It’s not mapped overly lean with the after market maps for de cat and / or open pipes. Also, people have had good results with the PowerCommander, Ollie Thiel fits these BTW...

 

[BritTwit]

At least with carbs you can easily adjust the idle mixture strength & tickover so it doesn't stall in traffic.

This will always be the Achilles heel of the 961 with the single IAC air tube design of it's throttle body.
Adding a PC will help overall performance on bikes with custom exhausts, but can't do much for the idling issues.
The PC also adds another layer of complexity to the bike's operation.
The price of unlocking the SC ECU is around $300, and I can then use standard software to change the 961 map settings.
I have a dyno tuner here on Long Island that I trust, who is willing to dial in the SC ECU.
At that point the new map settings and hopefully the IAC settings will produce a much better starting/running machine.

A 961 with Keihin injectors/throttle bodies, and rubber insulated intake manifolds would have none of the running issues.

 

[MxMartin]

Apparently the head temp sensor is a Jumo which has a stainless body and a higher temperature rating. Thanks to Max for that.

My head temp sensor was swapped at the last annual service, the only thing I gleamed was that it was stainless and more durable than what was fitted.

 

[speirmoor]

Whats the function of the CAM SENSOR vs CRANK POSITION SENSOR?
Are they easy to replace?

 

[TonyA]

Whats the function of the CAM SENSOR vs CRANK POSITION SENSOR?
Are they easy to replace?

I found this on line :

The primary function of the cam position sensing device is to collect camshaft data for the ECM or Engine Control Module in full. The ECM utilizes this data to determine when and which cylinder is up for firing. That, in turn, helps synchronize fuel injection and sparking sequences, ensuring an efficient engine that also produces optimal power.

The crankshaft sensing device monitors the shaft’s rotation and other vital information to help the ECM set ignition timing and RPM. It determines the engine speed by detecting the crank revolutions.

They are easy to replace , especially the cam position sensor at the front of the crankcase. The crank sensor requires you to remove the primary cover to replace it.

 

[speirmoor]

Thanks Tony
I’ll be replacing both in the near future. Getting a parts list together to get the job done

 

[Charlotte]

I believe that I’ve replaced all my sensors except for the one that is inside the primary case….which one is this again?
Oh… I havent done anything with the o2 sensors yet….
It seems to me, my bike ran better with every sensor change but it still could be better….
One of the last sensors I changed that I can give a before and after report is the IAC and TPS sensors. My bike would slowly drop idle rpm and then sometimes the bike would correct itself and sometimes not.
After the IAC change it seems that the idle is more consistent at the 1200 ish range. And the bike rarely stalls if the throttle is closed quickly like coming to a stop.

 

[speirmoor]

 

[speirmoor]

So to clean things up were looking at

#5. Head Temperature Sensor
#7. Road Speed Sensor
#14. Cam Sensor
#21. Air Temperature Sensor
#26. Lamda Sensors
Second Diagram
#10 Crank position Sensor

 

[Stephen_Spencer]

Can’t see the TPS indicated? Only had a ‘blokes look’ though, the wife would probably find it in seconds!

The IAV is the hardest to locate for purchase. I was looking to stick with the LOWE 57717 item in line with Tony’s earlier advice.



Can I ask what replacement IAM you purchased Charlotte, noting that you had a good outcome?

 

[speirmoor]

Thanks Stephen
I've added the TPS in another diagram.
Please confirm that its referred as #5 "Throttle Pot -PF2C" and I'll add it to the list.

I'm also looking for the MAP sensor, where is that physically located on the machine?

 

[TonyA]

Thanks Stephen
I've added the TPS in another diagram.
Please confirm that its referred as #5 "Throttle Pot -PF2C" and I'll add it to the list.

I'm also looking for the MAP sensor, where is that physically located on the machine?

Does a 2016 have a MAP sensor ? I was told that the later bikes that had the map sensor had it near the throttle bodies.