Norton 850 motor.

Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Messages
14,341
Country flag
Is it possible to buy a completely new 850 Commando engine ? - Might be an opening there for a bright young lad. I sometimes wonder about G50 Matchless motors - the Seeley Condor was a good idea. It might be possible to build and sell a really interesting retro, on a commercial basis. The best ever British racing 350 in the 1960s was the Seeley 7R AJS. It was quick enough to beat the MVs. MIke Duff did it.
What young guys do now can change what happens in the future. Life is about having fun. - At present guys still have a lot of knowledge about old motorcycles. Money-motivation does not necessarily create value.
I have found that when I do something purely out of genuine interest, I usually make a profit.
 
Andover Norton sells all the parts to build a new 850 Commando engine, but you might end up spending as much as buying a good running complete 850.
 
Is it possible to buy a completely new 850 Commando engine ? - Might be an opening there for a bright young lad. I sometimes wonder about G50 Matchless motors - the Seeley Condor was a good idea. It might be possible to build and sell a really interesting retro, on a commercial basis. The best ever British racing 350 in the 1960s was the Seeley 7R AJS. It was quick enough to beat the MVs. MIke Duff did it.
What young guys do now can change what happens in the future. Life is about having fun. - At present guys still have a lot of knowledge about old motorcycles. Money-motivation does not necessarily create value.
I have found that when I do something purely out of genuine interest, I usually make a profit.
No one sells them off the shelf as built motors. But it is possible the build a new Commando motor from parts. However, I’m fairly certain the cost would torpedo any profit making ideas you might have mate !

Minnovation Racing in the U.K. no longer build bikes. But Andy Molnar might, and Kenny at NYC certainly will.

Also, I happen to know a fella who’s selling one of the best and fastest Minnovation Racing Seeley G50s on the planet if you’re interested…
 
Andover Norton sells all the parts to build a new 850 Commando engine, but you might end up spending as much as buying a good running complete 850.
There’s no ‘might’ about it GP !

And it would have to be a VERY nice 850 too…
 
Is it possible to buy a completely new 850 Commando engine ? - Might be an opening there for a bright young lad. I sometimes wonder about G50 Matchless motors - the Seeley Condor was a good idea. It might be possible to build and sell a really interesting retro, on a commercial basis. The best ever British racing 350 in the 1960s was the Seeley 7R AJS. It was quick enough to beat the MVs. MIke Duff did it.
What young guys do now can change what happens in the future. Life is about having fun. - At present guys still have a lot of knowledge about old motorcycles. Money-motivation does not necessarily create value.
I have found that when I do something purely out of genuine interest, I usually make a profit.
Of course it's possible. I build and sell engines. However, the new word is a problem. AFAIK, if for race only I can buy everything new from AN except the head. Would need deep pockets. Even at my cost, from the cylinders down would be over $6600 USD in parts delivered to me. The head, if available, is over $2600 USD in parts delivered to me. The valve gear is over $1200 USD delivered to me. The timing side is over $800 USD delivered to me. So, with no ignition and a bare primary and my quick totaling it's over $11,200 USD for the parts to be delivered to me and I probably missed a bunch of small parts. The time to simply make and receive the orders would be at least 6 hours. The head, assuming no seat cutting or machining would be around 6 hours. If sent to Jim Comstock for his complete job, the head would total around would go up around $3000.

So, if picked up from me, I would build you one for somewhere in the $15k to $24k range. All standard parts unless you want the Jim Comstock head stuff and/or the Jim Schmit performance stuff.

I don't normally require deposits because if you renege on me, the next guy will buy. On this, it's 75% of the estimate down because I would never find another buyer for a new engine! I sell whole like new bikes for much less, and I sell like new engines for way less than that!
 
Last edited:
When Works Norton sell Manx motors do they build them to order and make a profit ?
The factories which make modern motorcycles must rely on economies of scale ?
JAWA stayed in business for a long time, and their market might have been mainly speedway stuff. Their motors were not much more complex than a Commando motor.
Building any production motorcycle out of spare parts would always have been horrendously expensive.
I do not live in the UK. However there seems to still be many small engineering firms there which could be organised to subcontract.
A smart person might be able to figure out the optimum size for an initial production batch.
I have managed a couple of engineering projects - it is not rocket science - just needs application.
If you had a Commando but no motor, how much would you pay for a new motor ?
 
Anything is possible if you had the money, the machinery, the expertise and the big one people willing to pay $20k+ for just a motor and after spending all that money setting up to find no one is willing to buy, unless you are a very rich person and money to throw around for a loss.
Even rebuilding your old motor with all the goodies that are around these days can cost over $20k+, might be cheaper in the long run to buy a new Norton but they are also expensive, well here in Aus anyway, but AL its good coming up with these ideas but really you not even riding the bike you have, but as I say its the setting up that would kill any project you are asking and to make that money back might take 10+ years and that's with a big ??? if you do sell them.
No the cost be just a big blow out and could end up in a disaster.
 
When Works Norton sell Manx motors do they build them to order and make a profit ?
The factories which make modern motorcycles must rely on economies of scale ?
JAWA stayed in business for a long time, and their market might have been mainly speedway stuff. Their motors were not much more complex than a Commando motor.
Building any production motorcycle out of spare parts would always have been horrendously expensive.
I do not live in the UK. However there seems to still be many small engineering firms there which could be organised to subcontract.
A smart person might be able to figure out the optimum size for an initial production batch.
I have managed a couple of engineering projects - it is not rocket science - just needs application.
If you had a Commando but no motor, how much would you pay for a new motor ?
Just bought and engine, gearbox, and cradle for $700 delivered - normally pay less than that but needed a gearbox pretty quick and have a project coming that I'll use all the engine except the cases to finish. I've bought complete 850s in pretty terrible condition but with engines, gearboxes, cradles, frames, and more that I make look nearly new - the most expensive was $3200 delivered (it was for parts as there was no title).

The most expensive Norton I ever bought is my rider - 100% original, all service records, engine never apart, 11k miles, I picked it up in PA from the second owner and paid $6000. It could use a tank re-paint and I made a new wiring harness and installed Tri-Spark, new tires, and battery. Just changed the original AMALs for Premiers. Even the black cap mufflers that the factory installed look good, and the original rims and spokes are rust free. It was always stored in a heated and cooled garage. In all I have around $7000 in it but it's not as nearly as nice as the ones I sell.

The 1972 bikes have no proper place for a license plate. I had brackets made and I powder coated them in house. I had 30 sets of two made as I was not sure they would sell. All have sold or I've used them. I sold them for $35 delivered in the US. They cost me $25/set to have made and then I powder coated them. Originally the shipping cost me $4.55 per set, the last set cost me $8.65 for shipping. It took three years to sell them. Considering inventory taxes, I lost a good bit of money overall. When I ran out, I asked for the price of 30 more sets - CNC so all they had to do was run them and ship them. The sets were going to cost me $48.16 delivered. I like to help the community, buy I'm not about to loose that much! So, you might think you can easily sub things out - nope! Out interested looked just up what they would cost if I had 5000 sets made: $21.43 delivered per set.

Now with careful use of AN, RGM, Norvil, and aftermarket you could probably build an engine for about $3000 less, but you asked about new and new doesn't include crap parts in my book.

You might think that I could approach AN with an order of all the parts to make 10, 20, 30 or more of them. I certainly could handle that, but please don't think that my cost would be less - AN does not have real dealer accounts - they are happy to sell retail all day - and it seems to be working well for them and to me, more power to them - I'm elated that they exist! If I were such an idiot and bought the parts for 10, I would eventually die with 10 "new" engines on the shelf! I can't even sell the $60,000 worth of AN parts I have now!
 
When Works Norton sell Manx motors do they build them to order and make a profit ?
The factories which make modern motorcycles must rely on economies of scale ?
JAWA stayed in business for a long time, and their market might have been mainly speedway stuff. Their motors were not much more complex than a Commando motor.
Building any production motorcycle out of spare parts would always have been horrendously expensive.
I do not live in the UK. However there seems to still be many small engineering firms there which could be organised to subcontract.
A smart person might be able to figure out the optimum size for an initial production batch.
I have managed a couple of engineering projects - it is not rocket science - just needs application.
If you had a Commando but no motor, how much would you pay for a new motor ?
Al, where are you going with this?

There is NO market for anyone to gear up and make such new engines. As Greg has already pointed out, the cost is completely prohibitive for ‘normal‘ people. And as others have pointed out, it’s already possible to order one from Norvil, or build one from AN parts lists, etc. So, the VERY few people who want to, can already do so.

To answer your question about having a Commando with no motor, people will simply buy a used one, or build one from used parts. There’s tons of such used stuff available.

It’s only the more serious racing lads or special builders who can justify the cost of a new build engine on the grounds of being stronger / faster. But even that already small market is shrinking fast as the racing rules change. There are not many people building new Commando race bikes anymore mate, not even here in the Motherland…

As to your point about new Manx engines, I’m not even sure if Works Racing is still trading ? But the cheapest new Molnar engine is £13,000, plus shipping and VAT. The most expensive, if you add all whistles and bells, is over £20,000 plus shipping and VAT.
 
Last edited:
Here is another question :
Does the new 961 Commando motor have the same cylinder base gasket as the old 850 or 750 Commando motor ?
I might be wrong, however I believe the 961 motor started as the Kenny Dreer motor. It might not be a complete redesign. When the Japanese do things, they tend to redesign the lot. The British did not do that so often.
I am thinking about compatability and where the 961 parts are manufactured. The Chinese and Indians will probably sell anything to anybody
 
Last edited:
Al, where are you going with this?

There is NO market for anyone to gear up and make such new engines. As Greg has already pointed out, the cost is completely prohibitive for ‘normal‘ people. And as others have pointed out, it’s already possible to order one from Norvil, or build one from AN parts lists, etc. So, the VERY few people who want to, can already do so.

To answer your question about having a Commando with no motor, people will simply buy a used one, or build one from used parts. There’s tons of such used stuff available.

It’s only the more serious racing lads or special builders who can justify the cost of a new build engine on the grounds of being stronger / faster. But even that already small market is shrinking fast as the racing rules change. There are not many people building new Commando race bikes anymore mate, not even here in the Motherland…

As to your point about new Manx engines, I’m not even sure if Works Racing is still trading ? But the cheapest new Molnar engine is £13,000, plus shipping and VAT. The most expensive, if you add all whistles and bells, is over £20,000 plus shipping and VAT.
Works Norton seem NOT to be doing Norton stuff anymore. A couple of people have said he is doing car stuff exclusively nowadays.
 
Here is another question :
Does the new 961 Commando motor have the same cylinder base gasket as the old 850 or 750 Commando motor ?
I might be wrong, however I believe the 961 motor started as the Kenny Dreer motor. It might not be a complete redesign. When the Japanese do things, they tend to redesign the lot. The British did not do that so often.
I am thinking about compatability and where the 961 parts are manufactured. The Chinese and Indians will probably sell anything to anybody
base gasket: nowhere near. I have both, and new motor is very different in all(?) respects AFAIK.
 
Here is another question :
Does the new 961 Commando motor have the same cylinder base gasket as the old 850 or 750 Commando motor ?
I might be wrong, however I believe the 961 motor started as the Kenny Dreer motor. It might not be a complete redesign. When the Japanese do things, they tend to redesign the lot. The British did not do that so often.
I am thinking about compatability and where the 961 parts are manufactured. The Chinese and Indians will probably sell anything to anybody
I don’t think there is ANYTHING in a 961 motor that fits and functions in a 750 / 850 motor.

You are right about Kenny, and that’s why the architecture is similar. But I’m pretty sure that’s all.
 
I don’t think there is ANYTHING in a 961 motor that fits and functions in a 750 / 850 motor.

You are right about Kenny, and that’s why the architecture is similar. But I’m pretty sure that’s all.
That is a bit sad. I thought there might be a possibility that the British manufacturers have not changed much. These days there seems to be fewer ways to have fun. I don't think riding a modern bike on public roads would do much, and racing one might be frightening. I have a mate who loves Harleys because they are totally rebuildable.
Amongst all of the retros, there must be something which would replace the early Commando and give some hands-on experience.
When I read the posts on this forum, most of the guys seem to be versatile and competent. Owning old motorcycles teaches a lot of skills.
I think Ihave lived in the most fun time ever. I never play computer games. The real deal is much better.
 
Last edited:
I have a mate who loves Harleys because they are totally rebuildable.
Thanks to AN, Norton Commandos are very close to completely rebuildable via one-stop shopping. Triumphs don't have an AN although AN is steadily adding Triumph, but they are even more rebuildable than a Norton since there were WAY more of them to get parts from. I'm not into pre-Commando Nortons but there are plenty of guys rebuilding the earlier bikes.

In truth, Harley does not supply parts far back for their bikes but there are WAY more Harleys than Nortons so again, there are used parts available to rebuild them and there is a big after-market industry around Harley since most are customized.

You started this asking about building new engines. It has devolved into new bikes. I wouldn't even consider a "New" 70s Commando. For one thing, in the US it would be taxed as a new bike, in my county it would have to have safety inspections annually, and emission inspections that it's guaranteed to fail every two years, be re-registered every two years, pay personal property tax each year, and so on. A 74 Commando costs $50 register once and it never has to be re-registered, there are no inspections, there is no personal property tax.

On top of that any classic series new Triumph costs less than the rebuilt Commandos I sell, looks like a proper motorcycle, and is probably must faster than any 70s Commando ever built wide open! They damned sure stop better, handle better, and go better than a Commando.
 
If your aim is for young guys to have a good bike to start racing on your can do well with a KTM 390. A friend in his early 50s who owns and races several OHC Velos uses a 390 for cheapish fun racing. With a bit of tuning they have close to the hp of most street Commandos too.

Having built and now rebuilding a 500 Dommie engine for NZCMRR pre 63 racing I can testify that it can get expensive very fast.
 
Thanks to AN, Norton Commandos are very close to completely rebuildable via one-stop shopping. Triumphs don't have an AN although AN is steadily adding Triumph, but they are even more rebuildable than a Norton since there were WAY more of them to get parts from. I'm not into pre-Commando Nortons but there are plenty of guys rebuilding the earlier bikes.

In truth, Harley does not supply parts far back for their bikes but there are WAY more Harleys than Nortons so again, there are used parts available to rebuild them and there is a big after-market industry around Harley since most are customized.

You started this asking about building new engines. It has devolved into new bikes. I wouldn't even consider a "New" 70s Commando. For one thing, in the US it would be taxed as a new bike, in my county it would have to have safety inspections annually, and emission inspections that it's guaranteed to fail every two years, be re-registered every two years, pay personal property tax each year, and so on. A 74 Commando costs $50 register once and it never has to be re-registered, there are no inspections, there is no personal property tax.

On top of that any classic series new Triumph costs less than the rebuilt Commandos I sell, looks like a proper motorcycle, and is probably must faster than any 70s Commando ever built wide open! They damned sure stop better, handle better, and go better than a Commando.
"Thanks to AN" is right. It makes Commando ownership easier knowing if something breaks it can be correctly replaced. The well sorted and accurate part catalogue sure helps too. One is likely to ride more knowing this.
 
If your aim is for young guys to have a good bike to start racing on your can do well with a KTM 390.

A biker friend in his early 70's who rides with our "club" in Mexico recently bought a KTM 390 to ride in preference to his Ducati Panigali V4! He finds the KTM much better for the cobblestone streets in town and the gravel/dirt roads that are part of the rides on occasion...DUH! I rode his Panigali a couple of times. When I was younger, I believed that no bike (or car) had enough power...but Holy Moly...twist the throttle on that Ducati in your instantly in a different Zip code!

FWIW, before buying the KTM he was considering buying a new Panigali because his only had 207 HP whereas the current one has 220+ (!!) But, as he said, common sense finally prevailed as far as matching the bike to the type of riding he did 90% of the time. I'm trying to convince him he needs a Commando but he's too smart to get into old bikes. ;)
 


Write your reply...
Back
Top