Norton 850 motor.

One way to get a new motor for an old Commando might be to buy the head and barrels for the 961, and manufacture crankcases and a billet crank. Puma cases and Nourish cranks were the go for grass-track Triumphs.

MexicoMike said:

A biker friend in his early 70's who rides with our "club" in Mexico recently bought a KTM 390 to ride in preference to his Ducati Panigali V4! He finds the KTM much better for the cobblestone streets in town and the gravel/dirt roads that are part of the rides on occasion...DUH! I rode his Panigali a couple of times. When I was younger, I believed that no bike (or car) had enough power...but Holy Moly...twist the throttle on that Ducati in your instantly in a different Zip code!

FWIW, before buying the KTM he was considering buying a new Panigali because his only had 207 HP whereas the current one has 220+ (!!) But, as he said, common sense finally prevailed as far as matching the bike to the type of riding he did 90% of the time. I'm trying to convince him he needs a Commando but he's too smart to get into old bikes.

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Does he ever give his bike a real squirt ? Bragging rights are bullshit. My mate bought a 170 HP Hyabusa. He could keep up in the straights, but the others left him for dead in corners. They were all idiot A grade road race riders, out on their Sunday rides.
I am amazed at what a 70 BHP Commando can achieve on a road race circuit. I never believed in mine, until I found out how to use it properly.

acotrel said:

........................I never play computer games...........

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Yes you do Al. You come on here with odd questions to see if you can get a thread going. You just did it again!

johnm said:

If your aim is for young guys to have a good bike to start racing on your can do well with a KTM 390. A friend in his early 50s who owns and races several OHC Velos uses a 390 for cheapish fun racing. With a bit of tuning they have close to the hp of most street Commandos too.

Having built and now rebuilding a 500 Dommie engine for NZCMRR pre 63 racing I can testify that it can get expensive very fast.

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Or very expensive, but still not very fast!

SteveA said:

Yes you do Al. You come on here with odd questions to see if you can get a thread going. You just did it again!

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Well Al has nothing else to do as he no longer rides his bike as its been so long ago, that poor old Norton just wasting away in the shed and he is thinking new motors.

ashman said:

Well Al has nothing else to do as he no longer rides his bike as its been so long ago, that poor old Norton just wasting away in the shed and he is thinking new motors.

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I may not get to ride mine again either, and it has only covered a few heat cycles and 400 metres from its last engine build!....got a heart monitor strapped on at the moment....to collect 48 hours of data and back to review it Monday!

Still, winter is just starting, who know what the new year may bring!

I was talking to a young guy a couple of days ago. He is the son of a guy who used to be the top A grade rider in Victoria when Manx Nortons were the go. He stil has his father's bikes. One of them is a works 350 Manx. He went to the recent Southern Classic historic championships at Broadford a few weeks ago. Things are not looking good for motorcycle roadracing in Australia. There needs to be a change of mindset. It seems that globally insurance costs have gone sky-high. However besides that, there are very few cheaper ways of getting into road racing other than buying a modern motorcycle spec. bike.
I was involved in writing the 'Guide to managing risk in motorsport' with Standards Australia. It might have minimally affected insurance costs in Australia, however insurance companies are global.
In Australia, the only development race classes are 'historic' - I suggest it is a nonsense to introduce rules into racing which stymie development. The only way racing can be justified is about development. There needs to be a level playing field, but Australian historic races are already full of 'cheaters'. In the olden days, we did not usually cheat on engine capacity.
I realise I am talking about two aspects, however they are inter-related.

acotrel said:

I was talking to a young guy a couple of days ago. He is the son of a guy who used to be the top A grade rider in Victoria when Manx Nortons were the go. He stil has his father's bikes. One of them is a works 350 Manx. He went to the recent Southern Classic historic championships at Broadford a few weeks ago. Things are not looking good for motorcycle roadracing in Australia. There needs to be a change of mindset. It seems that globally insurance costs have gone sky-high. However besides that, there are very few cheaper ways of getting into road racing other than buying a modern motorcycle spec. bike.
I was involved in writing the 'Guide to managing risk in motorsport' with Standards Australia. It might have minimally affected insurance costs in Australia, however insurance companies are global.
In Australia, the only development race classes are 'historic' - I suggest it is a nonsense to introduce rules into racing which stymie development. The only way racing can be justified is about development. There needs to be a level playing field, but Australian historic races are already full of 'cheaters'. In the olden days, we did not usually cheat on engine capacity.
I realise I am talking about two aspects, however they are inter-related.

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I bet that people would likely quit having negative things to say to/about you if you would put things like this thread in the pub. You would get just as much response, but it would be taken more lightly. I spent a good bit of time formulating answers thinking that this was some serious quest for you not realizing that it was not.

Over the years there have been many road racing classes, And our motorcycle clubs are now involved in politics internally and extrernally. For somebody who wanrs ro road race, there is no easy entry for beginners. I suggest a good way forward might be to have development classes for air-cooled twin and single cylinder four-stroke motorcycles, and run them in capacity classes.

My comment about the 850 Commando motor was serious. In Australia, very few people ever raced bevel Ducatis. There was a one-make class for 883 Harley Sportsters which lased about a minute. Life is about having fun.
Many times i have mentioned what happened the last time I raced, I rode my Seeley 850, under and past the three leaders who were on methanol- fuelled 1100cc CB750 Hondas. It is not the same as out-riding a good guy on a bevel Ducati.
I suggest Commando motors still have potential. A bottom end is easier to manufacture than a top end. Four valves per cylinder in an aircooled motor are not much quicker than two

acotrel said:

Over the years there have been many road racing classes, And our motorcycle clubs are now involved in politics internally and extrernally. For somebody who wanrs ro road race, there is no easy entry for beginners. I suggest a good way forward might be to have development classes for air-cooled twin and single cylinder four-stroke motorcycles, and run them in capacity classes.

My comment about the 850 Commando motor was serious. In Australia, very few people ever raced bevel Ducatis. There was a one-make class for 883 Harley Sportsters which lased about a minute. Life is about having fun.
Many times i have mentioned what happened the last time I raced, I rode my Seeley 850, under and past the three leaders who were on methanol- fuelled 1100cc CB750 Hondas. It is not the same as out-riding a good guy on a bevel Ducati.
I suggest Commando motors still have potential. A bottom end is easier to manufacture than a top end. Four valves per cylinder in an aircooled motor are not much quicker than two

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The 360 deg crank parallel twin layout, didn't end with the commando


brand new even today

Tons more out there, on this engine layout....


A humble two-cylinder motor has beaten rivals that include a high-revving Ferrari V8 to be crowned 2011 international engine of the year.

Fiat's 875cc (0.9-litre) turbocharged 'TwinAir' engine was judged the best powerplant by a panel of 76 journalists and industry experts from 36 countries.

To the question " If you had a Commando with no engine, how much would you pay for an engine" I'm sure everyone has a different figure they would be willing to put up.
The cost isn't too bad if willing to purchase used parts from ebay, then rebuild as necessary.
I built a complete 920 light roadbike that way and it wasn't crazy expensive. It was a lot of fun hunting for bargains and gathering all of the parts over a two year period. I found a perfect MK3 crank for $140! Ken gave me a great deal on an alloy cylinder, that also helped a lot.
The end result is a very nice light road bike with a lot of extra grunt in the middle. I would say that it does compare favorably with a modern Triumph for braking, handling and performance if comparing the 920 Norton to an 865 ot 900 Triumph. For starters, the Norton finished up about 200 lbs lighter than an 865 Triumph!

That is quite an advantage for the Norton.

I wouldnt build that type of engine for racing as it becomes a time bomb for that application.
I recall that Doug McRae's horrific crash was caused by a stock crank letting go in a hotrodded engine that was being raced.
Fortunately , as others have pointed out, there are uprated new parts available for that type of use. They are expensive but worth it for the safety factor alone, never mind that the stock cases and crank just won't last very long when racing. ( unless one races very slowly

Glen

worntorn said:

To the question " If you had a Commando with no engine, how much would you pay for an engine" I'm sure everyone has a different figure they would be willing to put up.
The cost isn't too bad if willing to purchase used parts from ebay, then rebuild as necessary.
I built a complete 920 light roadbike that way and it wasn't crazy expensive. It was a lot of fun hunting for bargains and gathering all of the parts over a two year period. I found a perfect MK3 crank for $140! Ken gave me a great deal on an alloy cylinder, that also helped a lot.
The end result is a very nice light road bike with a lot of extra grunt in the middle. I would say that it does compare favorably with a modern Triumph for braking, handling and performance if comparing the 920 Norton to an 865 ot 900 Triumph. For starters, the Norton finished up about 200 lbs lighter than an 865 Triumph! That is quite an advantage.

I wouldnt build that type of engine for racing as it becomes a time bomb for that application.
I recall that Doug McRae's horrific crash was caused by a stock crank letting go in a hotrodded engine that was being raced.
Fortunately , as others have pointed out, there are uprated new parts available for that type of use. They are expensive but worth it for the safety factor alone, never mind that the stock cases and crank just won't last very long when racing. ( unless one races very slowly

Glen

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or parks it in the shed, and spends 40 years talking about it and why it will never see a track again

My wife has put the kybosh on my racing. And I think she might be doing me a favour. These days I cannot ever look at my bike without having feelings of grief. I really enjoyed racing it, but these days there are too many hurdles. Even when the next guy gets it, the opportunity to get a decent ride with it probably will not be there.
A Commando-based bike is similar to some other bikes which appear in other historic racing groups, however because of date-based rules, they never race together.
I have never been interested in racing four-culinder bikes or two-strokes. If they are there when I am having a ride, I will race against them, but whether they are faster or slower is not of much interest to me. Those 1100cc CB750 Hondas of Rex Wolfenden, and some two-strokes absolutely fly down the straights, but are useless in corners. When I race, it is about the dogfight and developing the bike to be as good as it can be.
My 850 motor will not shit itself, and the Seeley actually handles. The gearbox is a major factor. The motor does not need to be so fast.
For some guys, being blown to the weeds as they go down a long straight on a race circuit , can be very disheartening. To me that is simply part of the game. With my bike, if that happens, it does not matter. But ending up in front of them is irrelevant. If they were all on bevel Ducatis, or Pantah-based Ducatis, that would be different.
It is the TYPE of bike which is important.
When I bought the 6 speed TTI gearbox, I sold a good TZ350G to get it. If there had been a good two-stroke class, I would probably have raced that. But 'historic' races are usually organised by sidecar guys. Racing a TZ350 against four-strokes is equally as stupid.

I virtually stopped racing when 'historic racing' came along in the 1970s, because it was obviously idiocy. I began racing again in 2002 after I had retired. I have enjoyed the few rides I have had since then - they were worth doing. But there is no future for classic racing in Australia. The British seem to be a lot better.

acotrel said:

....................But there is no future for classic racing in Australia. The British seem to be a lot better.

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Take a look at the rule changes proposed for next year.....they may seem better.....

(I think France will be a difficult place to race next year too, 96db!)

What happens in road racing in Europe does actually affect what happens in Australia. Over there, they do a nostalgia kick much better. In Australia, we are almost American - everything is about being bright shiny new. Our motorcycling history is almost unknown. That is the reason I have a Youtube channel.

SteveA said:

I may not get to ride mine again either, and it has only covered a few heat cycles and 400 metres from its last engine build!....got a heart monitor strapped on at the moment....to collect 48 hours of data and back to review it Monday!

Still, winter is just starting, who know what the new year may bring!

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I've been through that. You suddenly realize that we take more care of our bikes than ourselves. Keep well.

marshg246 said:

... I spent a good bit of time formulating answers thinking that this was some serious quest for you not realizing that it was not ...

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But it wasn't wasted time, I found it fascinating, thank you

MichaelD said:

But it wasn't wasted time, I found it fascinating, thank you

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vets have been about here prob 20-30 yrs+ lots more, often ends up with a rep & stuff unknown to noobs

tonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn of history here tho & know what u mean by fascinating, but often same ol sh.. for vets/geezers lol

the utube channel is prob news to most