Production Racer - Need Reference Bike

[acotrel]

Production racing is never that. It is obviously a concept created by silly people. If there is going to be production racing, every single aspect of the bikes must be scrutinised. My friend who is a motorcycle dealer was involved in the Castrol 6 Hour Race. When certain makes of bikes were imported from Japan, the dealers had a list of the engine numbers of the bikes which were intended to be used in the 6 hour race.

 

[norton bob]

I am attempting to re-build a 1963 650 SS in production racing trim . If anyone has pictures or real world memories of one I would be very interested . I am also interested in any info on the Paul Smart /Reg Everret Ducati 250 Mark3 that won the 24 hour Barcelona in 1967.

 

[Blewdy Yaink]

I think the rear fender and number plate bracket are Fastback parts, the rear light bracket is a cut down Roadster number.
Electronic ignition choices...?
Maybe we could discuss what's the best oil?
Only kidding... my personal choice would be a Tri-spark as it's neater and gives the best idle (in my experience).
They're all good though

Correct on the rear fender and number plate bracket. The rear lamp "fairing" (glassfibre part) is the stock Roadster item for the "beehive" taillamp with the front tip trimmed off just as it passes the rear frame loop; this is to match up with the rear edge of the stock RP seat. This is my rough sketch, modified from an Andover-Norton parts diagram. Not shown is a hole for a screw at the front end of the trimmed fairing; a screw goes through this hole and threads into a counter-bored and threaded larger screw that fixes a "C" clamp over the rear frame loop to secure the mudguard. WIth the seat off, that "C" clamp is naked (covered by the stock front end of the fairing) but it's covered by the rear of the PR seat.

The first PRs had black-painted steel rear fenders, as B+B says, from the Fastbacks at the time. The later ones went to stainless. There were also two different front mudguards in glassfibre; the earlier ones were slightly wider at the mounts to the fork sliders and tapered less so that they had a gently rounded front and rear tip, the newer type were narrower at the mounting area and tapered more so that the ends were almost pointed.

A New-York based photographer named Allan Tannebaum was traveling in the UK and Europe photographing motorcycles about August, 1972. He called in at the Andover factory (as well as the Ducati factory on the same trip) and he has some good photos of the production line with some PRs being built - his photos were published in a contemporary magazine but, sorry, I don't have a link - but they show good detail with some PRs with tank on and some with tank off.
About the same time, there were at least two later-spec PRs and an "AMA" spec racer built at Wolverhampton, general Commando production assembly being moved to Wolverhampton at the time. I believe the idea was to produce another batch of PRs at Wolverhampton but that never happened. There was one 850 PR built in the Experimental shop at Wolverhampton in later 1972 with a "John Baker"-built special 850 engine but otherwise like the other later PRs except all the glassfibre parts were produced in red. That one is probably the last factory-built PR and it's the one I'm most familiar with (it's sitting in my workshop now, as it has since 1972).

 

[Blewdy Yaink]

(snip) Remember PR were also built and photographed on the roof of the old Plumstead works, these would pre-date the yellow Thruxton bikes we know of, what happened to those bikes I am not sure. (snip.)

I also wondered about those three racers and I asked around. I've had extensive conversations with Norman White and Brian Slark about these. The only one that seems to have had any "history" was the red one. It was shipped to the US in (I think) late 1969 and used for a "Cycle World" road-and-track test article that appeared about May, 1970. In testing at Riverside Raceway, it was timed at 131 Mph on the back straight and drew a lot of praise from Jack Simmons and ?? Farnsworth who were the test riders. This motorcycle seems to have been converted to be very much the same spec as the first factory PRs.
Norman White has indicated to me that he was working at the (ex-AMC) factory at the time but these motorcycles were very much the execution of John MacLaren with design work by Peter Williams. (This predates the John Player Norton racing era, of course.) There is a copy of the three motorcycles together on Norman's website.
In what seems odd to me, the others had the "later" type disk front brakes but the 20M3 engines (tach drive on the end of the camshaft) while the red one that went to the US had a drum front brake but a 20M3S engine (tach drive inboard off the cam and points on the camshaft end). The 20M3S engine was introduced for general Commando production on the "S" model Commandos with production starting about March - April, 1969. By the time that Norton production moved to Andover in late May, 1969, Norman was "full-time" in the race and development shop; I believe that he might have more info as to the later history of the early green and orange PRs.

Brian Slark (Service manager at Norton Villiers, Inc. in California at the time), kept the racer at the Long Beach distribution facility for a while and had it ridden at some AFM and ACA production races but soon after, it was sold to Alex McLean in Corte Madera, California, north of San Francisco. McLean owned and operated a dealership that was (I think) called "Motorcycles Unlimited" and was NVC's largest-selling dealer among the dealers in the 7 US states served by NVC at the time. Alex McLean was a Scotsman who had emigrated to Canada and then to the US; he had raced in the TT races previously. The bike was raced by Alex's sons fairly regularly. I believe it had a 5-speed close ratio Quaife gearbox at the time that it came to the US. Brian remembers that the front drum brake was an excellent brake but sometime in its early history it was converted into a PR-standard front single disk brake.
The motorcycle stayed in the McLean family for a number of years, afterwards it went to auction and was acquired by Jamie Waters, an avid classic motorcycle collector in the New York City area; it remains in Jamie's collection today.

 

[Nourish]

From the period photos I've seen, the brake hoses were similar to ones I had on a Rickman Trident with Lockheed Racing calipers & master cylinders; they were braided and sheathed in some kind of shiny black fibre reinforced vinyl, which was falling apart on mine. The fittings were also very different to standard Commando, being assembled from a number of parts. Early Ducati 750 GTs with Lockheed Racing kit used the same stuff, so I'm guessing the hoses may also have been Lockheed Racing parts?

I can't find a good enough period photo of the Norton kit, but this Ducati 750 GT shows what I mean. If anyone knows where I can source the correct components I'd like to hear from you!





Black sheathed stainless hoses are available, but I haven't seen those exact fittings. That said, I haven't looked very hard recently.

Andover Norton Parts Drawings - Genuine Andover Norton Factory Parts - Commando Parts

Andover Norton Parts are the only Norton spare parts in the market manufactured to original drawings, within the factory-approved tolerances, from the correct materials, and with the correct finish.

andover-norton.co.uk

This gives all the original PR part numbers. One thing I struggled to find was correct 'tucked-in' header pipes. A certain Emporium north of Birmingham lists them against the PR part number, but when I phoned to order a set I was told theirs were just standard Roadster pipes

"One thing I struggled to find was correct 'tucked-in' header pipes" Norman White lists his tucked in header pipes

 

[swooshdave]

I still live in that era.

No truer words have been uttered on this forum.

 

[jan nelder]

Now you have me confused, Jan. This thread is all about the Commando Production Racer, or PR. You asked "...were both the older Atlas and the bigger Commando type used over the production run of the PR?" So "production run" would seem to refer to the 200 or so Commando Production Racers that were built and mostly sold to the public. Many of those were used for racing, so were "actual racers". A few were even used as factory race bikes. When you say "actual racers", which bikes are you referring to? If you are referring to other works racers, like the John Player F750 specials in 1971 - 1974 (conventional, Monocoque, and birdcage chassis), I have heard some mention of at least one of them using the earlier Atlas style yokes, but they are not PRs.

Not trying to start an argument, so please don;t take this as a criticism, but I really don't understand what bikes you were asking about. My '71 PR was part of the PR production run, not a replica, and an actual racer for almost 20 years, and it had standard Commando yokes.

Ken

I was probably mixing up production and factory racers .

 

[Blewdy Yaink]

I have a 1971 Production Racer (genuine, not a replica) which was first purchased by Gus Kuhn and then sold to Ian Kennedy in late '71. It was raced in the UK by Ron Wittich for a couple of years and then sat in Ian's shop as a display until I bought it from him in 2017. I'm preparing to put it back in working order, don't wish to restore it or change anything but some things are missing or amiss- who has an original that would be willing to let me go over it to determine what is correct for mine? Some items like the front brake hose are confounding in that it's different than the standard Commando hose. I'm missing a few other odds and ends that I'd like to get right rather than cobbling things together. Thanks!

Sorry for the necrocommenting, but I have a factory PR. I'm in North Carolina, and I have a good bit of documentation that I have gathered over the years. I'd be glad to help.

 

[SteveMinning]

Great thread. I too live in that era.

 

[Blewdy Yaink]

I'm coming back to this thread to ask help. Here is a post I made on a Crackbook forum. I'd appreciate your help, reply or PM OK.
Thanks, BH

Commando Production Racer owners and "JPN" 850 owners -- a little help, please.
I am having a little trouble with the registration authorities in North Carolina, USA regarding the VIN plate on my Production Racer. They have a booklet issued by insurance companies in the 60s and 70s that shows the VIN Certification plate on the Commando frame headstock. (The US NHTSA regulation says "the label must be affixed to a permanent member of the vehicle as close as is practicable to the intersection of the steering post with the handlebars, so that it is easily readable without moving any part of the vehicle except for the steering system".)
The inspector (a retired highway patrolman who seems helpful but a bit of a stickler for detail) is not impressed by my VIN plate which is fixed under the seat on my factory-built PR.
I was always concerned that the placement of PR and JPN Certification plates was in a grey area as regards the NHTSA reg. but I have never run into problems before.
I think that if I can show him photos of other Production Racers and JPN 850s with the VIN plate under the seat, he might relent and approve my VIN plate location. (He is already happy with the actual VIN which matches the engine serial number and my original US Importation documents, it's just the location of the plate that's a problem).
If you have one of these Commandos, would you please send me a photo of the VIN plate under the seat? If you're more comfortable blurring actual numbers before you send it, that's OK -- I'm going to blur the numbers anyway before I submit them to the inspector. I will not share your photos with any one else after I show them to the inspector.
Thanks for the help, Bruce H, Carrboro, NC USA

 

[Blewdy Yaink]

Great thread. I too live in that era.

Yes. So do I. Unfortunately, I was old when I started then.

 

[kommando]

I'm coming back to this thread to ask help. Here is a post I made on a Crackbook forum. I'd appreciate your help, reply or PM OK.
Thanks, BH

Commando Production Racer owners and "JPN" 850 owners -- a little help, please.
I am having a little trouble with the registration authorities in North Carolina, USA regarding the VIN plate on my Production Racer. They have a booklet issued by insurance companies in the 60s and 70s that shows the VIN Certification plate on the Commando frame headstock. (The US NHTSA regulation says "the label must be affixed to a permanent member of the vehicle as close as is practicable to the intersection of the steering post with the handlebars, so that it is easily readable without moving any part of the vehicle except for the steering system".)
The inspector (a retired highway patrolman who seems helpful but a bit of a stickler for detail) is not impressed by my VIN plate which is fixed under the seat on my factory-built PR.
I was always concerned that the placement of PR and JPN Certification plates was in a grey area as regards the NHTSA reg. but I have never run into problems before.
I think that if I can show him photos of other Production Racers and JPN 850s with the VIN plate under the seat, he might relent and approve my VIN plate location. (He is already happy with the actual VIN which matches the engine serial number and my original US Importation documents, it's just the location of the plate that's a problem).
If you have one of these Commandos, would you please send me a photo of the VIN plate under the seat? If you're more comfortable blurring actual numbers before you send it, that's OK -- I'm going to blur the numbers anyway before I submit them to the inspector. I will not share your photos with any one else after I show them to the inspector.
Thanks for the help, Bruce H, Carrboro, NC USA

Why not contact the NOC dating officer and ask for an email confirming that for PR's and Interpol's with fairings which obscured the Headstock the factory put the Vin plate on the main tube under the seat.

 

[L.A.B.]

Mk3 Interpol.

Norton Motorcycles Factory

The photographs show the appalling underinvestment that management had made in the manufacturing process, and the tension involved in the sad demise of the company.

www.nickhedgesphotography.co.uk

 

[Fast Eddie]

Some clear pictures of a JPN headstock and under seat VIN plate on the bike in this advert:

D

Thread 'JP Norton auction'

Dec 24, 2024

https://cars.bonhams.com/auction/31...er-commando-frame-no-318048-engine-no-318048/

• DougC
• Replies: 14
• Forum: Things I've seen on craigslist/Ebay etc.

 

[acotrel]

I am attempting to re-build a 1963 650 SS in production racing trim . If anyone has pictures or real world memories of one I would be very interested . I am also interested in any info on the Paul Smart /Reg Everret Ducati 250 Mark3 that won the 24 hour Barcelona in 1967.

I suggest a 650SS production racer would look like a normal road bike. Racing changed a lot after the early 1960s. There is a bit of Pathe video which shows Nortons racing at Thruxton - we did not have fibre-glass.

 

[norton bob]

An early 1960's PR bike is not the same as a racer in the UK. Only minor items were supposed to be changed . The very succesfull Lawton Wilson bike was ridden to the dealer in standard road trim (650SS) and i think the dealer fitted Ace dropped bars ,ATRC racing rev counter ,manx seat , manx rearsets ,tank padding . Engine top end was stripped and new barrels and pistons fitted ( Factory delivery rider partially seized it!) with extra clearance . Exhaust pipes were cut, extended a little and angled up with extra braces for silencers . Drive side only carb jetted up ,primary chain set with extra slack and minimal oil. Racing rear chain fitted. Std Avon Speedmaster front tyre, Avon GP rear . Rear chain links fitted to bar levers to reduce span. Bike was stripped and rebuilt each year and looked a bit different each time , Fairing added , paint scheme changed ,brake scoop and cooling holes added , alloy rims too. The wheel rims were slightly offset to the primary side to correct a ballance issue.. The factory also built 2 or 3 Atlas PR racers for the IOM in the late 1960 's ,I have a set of the very special tucked in by the downtubes pipes from one of these ,perhaps should build a bike round these!!. The Thruxton bike in 63 /4 appears to have an Avon AR fairing ,the 62 had a manx type metal fly screen in front of the headlamp shell . The Lawton Wilson bike dissapeared in the museum fire fiasco. My recreation has definately had some race modifications in the past , perhaps its an ex racer ! One is allowed to dream.

 

[ZFD]

Correct on the rear fender and number plate bracket. The rear lamp "fairing" (glassfibre part) is the stock Roadster item for the "beehive" taillamp with the front tip trimmed off just as it passes the rear frame loop; this is to match up with the rear edge of the stock RP seat. This is my rough sketch, modified from an Andover-Norton parts diagram. Not shown is a hole for a screw at the front end of the trimmed fairing; a screw goes through this hole and threads into a counter-bored and threaded larger screw that fixes a "C" clamp over the rear frame loop to secure the mudguard. WIth the seat off, that "C" clamp is naked (covered by the stock front end of the fairing) but it's covered by the rear of the PR seat.
View attachment 111862

The first PRs had black-painted steel rear fenders, as B+B says, from the Fastbacks at the time. The later ones went to stainless. There were also two different front mudguards in glassfibre; the earlier ones were slightly wider at the mounts to the fork sliders and tapered less so that they had a gently rounded front and rear tip, the newer type were narrower at the mounting area and tapered more so that the ends were almost pointed.

A New-York based photographer named Allan Tannebaum was traveling in the UK and Europe photographing motorcycles about August, 1972. He called in at the Andover factory (as well as the Ducati factory on the same trip) and he has some good photos of the production line with some PRs being built - his photos were published in a contemporary magazine but, sorry, I don't have a link - but they show good detail with some PRs with tank on and some with tank off.
About the same time, there were at least two later-spec PRs and an "AMA" spec racer built at Wolverhampton, general Commando production assembly being moved to Wolverhampton at the time. I believe the idea was to produce another batch of PRs at Wolverhampton but that never happened. There was one 850 PR built in the Experimental shop at Wolverhampton in later 1972 with a "John Baker"-built special 850 engine but otherwise like the other later PRs except all the glassfibre parts were produced in red. That one is probably the last factory-built PR and it's the one I'm most familiar with (it's sitting in my workshop now, as it has since 1972).

Proddy Racer rear mudguards (fenders) were NOT Fastback ones but solely used on the Production racers with a profile that had "side lips". See https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-drawing/1028/rear-mudguard
We had a small number made when that was still possible, using my original Proddy Racer's as a template. Expensive, but if someone wants the read deal we have one.

 

[jan nelder]

Proddy Racer rear mudguards (fenders) were NOT Fastback ones but solely used on the Production racers with a profile that had "side lips". See https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-drawing/1028/rear-mudguard
We had a small number made when that was still possible, using my original Proddy Racer's as a template. Expensive, but if someone wants the read deal we have one.

£406 plus 20% tax.

 

[ZFD]

Labour of love. We knew there was little call for them but intended to have most original parts for the Proddy Racers.
Today, we do not even have anybody who was able to re-make them. When they are gone, they are gone.

 

[Matchless]

Labour of love. We knew there was little call for them but intended to have most original parts for the Proddy Racers.
Today, we do not even have anybody who was able to re-make them. When they are gone, they are gone.

They may sound expensive but are a bargain. I'm currently restoring a MK1 Interceptor, & the rear mudguard will cost more than that to restore. If I could buy a new high quality one in chrome plate I would be a happy man. I did get a supposedly English made repro. ,£300 in bare steel from BBB, but it was so poorly made I sent it back.