Production Racer - Need Reference Bike

acotrel · Oct 21, 2023

Production racing is never that. It is obviously a concept created by silly people. If there is going to be production racing, every single aspect of the bikes must be scrutinised. My friend who is a motorcycle dealer was involved in the Castrol 6 Hour Race. When certain makes of bikes were imported from Japan, the dealers had a list of the engine numbers of the bikes which were intended to be used in the 6 hour race.

norton bob · Oct 22, 2023

I am attempting to re-build a 1963 650 SS in production racing trim . If anyone has pictures or real world memories of one I would be very interested . I am also interested in any info on the Paul Smart /Reg Everret Ducati 250 Mark3 that won the 24 hour Barcelona in 1967.

Blewdy Yaink · Jan 2, 2024

B+Bogus said:
I think the rear fender and number plate bracket are Fastback parts, the rear light bracket is a cut down Roadster number.
Electronic ignition choices...?
Maybe we could discuss what's the best oil?
Only kidding... my personal choice would be a Tri-spark as it's neater and gives the best idle (in my experience).
They're all good though

Correct on the rear fender and number plate bracket. The rear lamp "fairing" (glassfibre part) is the stock Roadster item for the "beehive" taillamp with the front tip trimmed off just as it passes the rear frame loop; this is to match up with the rear edge of the stock RP seat. This is my rough sketch, modified from an Andover-Norton parts diagram. Not shown is a hole for a screw at the front end of the trimmed fairing; a screw goes through this hole and threads into a counter-bored and threaded larger screw that fixes a "C" clamp over the rear frame loop to secure the mudguard. WIth the seat off, that "C" clamp is naked (covered by the stock front end of the fairing) but it's covered by the rear of the PR seat.

The first PRs had black-painted steel rear fenders, as B+B says, from the Fastbacks at the time. The later ones went to stainless. There were also two different front mudguards in glassfibre; the earlier ones were slightly wider at the mounts to the fork sliders and tapered less so that they had a gently rounded front and rear tip, the newer type were narrower at the mounting area and tapered more so that the ends were almost pointed.

A New-York based photographer named Allan Tannebaum was traveling in the UK and Europe photographing motorcycles about August, 1972. He called in at the Andover factory (as well as the Ducati factory on the same trip) and he has some good photos of the production line with some PRs being built - his photos were published in a contemporary magazine but, sorry, I don't have a link - but they show good detail with some PRs with tank on and some with tank off.
About the same time, there were at least two later-spec PRs and an "AMA" spec racer built at Wolverhampton, general Commando production assembly being moved to Wolverhampton at the time. I believe the idea was to produce another batch of PRs at Wolverhampton but that never happened. There was one 850 PR built in the Experimental shop at Wolverhampton in later 1972 with a "John Baker"-built special 850 engine but otherwise like the other later PRs except all the glassfibre parts were produced in red. That one is probably the last factory-built PR and it's the one I'm most familiar with (it's sitting in my workshop now, as it has since 1972).

Blewdy Yaink · Jan 2, 2024

Madnorton said:
(snip) Remember PR were also built and photographed on the roof of the old Plumstead works, these would pre-date the yellow Thruxton bikes we know of, what happened to those bikes I am not sure. (snip.)

I also wondered about those three racers and I asked around. I've had extensive conversations with Norman White and Brian Slark about these. The only one that seems to have had any "history" was the red one. It was shipped to the US in (I think) late 1969 and used for a "Cycle World" road-and-track test article that appeared about May, 1970. In testing at Riverside Raceway, it was timed at 131 Mph on the back straight and drew a lot of praise from Jack Simmons and ?? Farnsworth who were the test riders. This motorcycle seems to have been converted to be very much the same spec as the first factory PRs.
Norman White has indicated to me that he was working at the (ex-AMC) factory at the time but these motorcycles were very much the execution of John MacLaren with design work by Peter Williams. (This predates the John Player Norton racing era, of course.) There is a copy of the three motorcycles together on Norman's website.
In what seems odd to me, the others had the "later" type disk front brakes but the 20M3 engines (tach drive on the end of the camshaft) while the red one that went to the US had a drum front brake but a 20M3S engine (tach drive inboard off the cam and points on the camshaft end). The 20M3S engine was introduced for general Commando production on the "S" model Commandos with production starting about March - April, 1969. By the time that Norton production moved to Andover in late May, 1969, Norman was "full-time" in the race and development shop; I believe that he might have more info as to the later history of the early green and orange PRs.

Brian Slark (Service manager at Norton Villiers, Inc. in California at the time), kept the racer at the Long Beach distribution facility for a while and had it ridden at some AFM and ACA production races but soon after, it was sold to Alex McLean in Corte Madera, California, north of San Francisco. McLean owned and operated a dealership that was (I think) called "Motorcycles Unlimited" and was NVC's largest-selling dealer among the dealers in the 7 US states served by NVC at the time. Alex McLean was a Scotsman who had emigrated to Canada and then to the US; he had raced in the TT races previously. The bike was raced by Alex's sons fairly regularly. I believe it had a 5-speed close ratio Quaife gearbox at the time that it came to the US. Brian remembers that the front drum brake was an excellent brake but sometime in its early history it was converted into a PR-standard front single disk brake.
The motorcycle stayed in the McLean family for a number of years, afterwards it went to auction and was acquired by Jamie Waters, an avid classic motorcycle collector in the New York City area; it remains in Jamie's collection today.

Nourish · Jan 3, 2024

B+Bogus said:
From the period photos I've seen, the brake hoses were similar to ones I had on a Rickman Trident with Lockheed Racing calipers & master cylinders; they were braided and sheathed in some kind of shiny black fibre reinforced vinyl, which was falling apart on mine. The fittings were also very different to standard Commando, being assembled from a number of parts. Early Ducati 750 GTs with Lockheed Racing kit used the same stuff, so I'm guessing the hoses may also have been Lockheed Racing parts?

I can't find a good enough period photo of the Norton kit, but this Ducati 750 GT shows what I mean. If anyone knows where I can source the correct components I'd like to hear from you!

Black sheathed stainless hoses are available, but I haven't seen those exact fittings. That said, I haven't looked very hard recently.

Andover Norton Parts Drawings - Genuine Andover Norton Factory Parts - Commando Parts

Andover Norton Parts are the only Norton spare parts in the market manufactured to original drawings, within the factory-approved tolerances, from the correct materials, and with the correct finish.

andover-norton.co.uk

This gives all the original PR part numbers. One thing I struggled to find was correct 'tucked-in' header pipes. A certain Emporium north of Birmingham lists them against the PR part number, but when I phoned to order a set I was told theirs were just standard Roadster pipes

"One thing I struggled to find was correct 'tucked-in' header pipes" Norman White lists his tucked in header pipes

swooshdave · Jan 3, 2024

acotrel said:
I still live in that era.

No truer words have been uttered on this forum.

jan nelder · Jan 4, 2024

lcrken said:
Now you have me confused, Jan. This thread is all about the Commando Production Racer, or PR. You asked "...were both the older Atlas and the bigger Commando type used over the production run of the PR?" So "production run" would seem to refer to the 200 or so Commando Production Racers that were built and mostly sold to the public. Many of those were used for racing, so were "actual racers". A few were even used as factory race bikes. When you say "actual racers", which bikes are you referring to? If you are referring to other works racers, like the John Player F750 specials in 1971 - 1974 (conventional, Monocoque, and birdcage chassis), I have heard some mention of at least one of them using the earlier Atlas style yokes, but they are not PRs.

Not trying to start an argument, so please don;t take this as a criticism, but I really don't understand what bikes you were asking about. My '71 PR was part of the PR production run, not a replica, and an actual racer for almost 20 years, and it had standard Commando yokes.

Ken

I was probably mixing up production and factory racers .

Production Racer - Need Reference Bike

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