BLIGHTYBRIT/SF
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Norton 961 Commando a keeper?
- Thread starter BikerBore
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I don't buy this concept. For a motorcycle, the engine is the heart, the core and "soul" of the vehicle, much more so than of a car where the powerplant is hidden and it's characteristic is obscured by low power to weight ratio (save for sports cars). The high power/weight characteristic of a bike simply directs the attention to the engine.
So, a bike maker needs to have their own engine to create a unique identity. I've touched this theme before. To reiterate, the 961 needs a new engine. Having a look at Moto Guzzi's development of the Griso engine may be rewarding: High-mounted chain-driven camshaft, 4 valves per cylinder, thermal efficiency by having a high compression ratio, fuel injection, complete electronic engine management. However, no performance engine will meet EURO-4 emission standards unless it is watercooled. Thus, a variation of the unappealing 650-engine is necessary. A characteristic of Norton's genes, it's advisable to stick to the transverse twin cylinder theme.
The next step is defining the customer. For a bike produced in Europe in limited numbers, with its high wages, utilising quality bought-in components, the prime customer will be established men and women at 40+ years of age prepared to pay the high price of around $15K.
The next step is defining the market. Sport bike, touring bike, coffee shop racer, retro bike for easy riding, a bobber?
Market demands are very diverse. Moto Guzzi was mentioned in this thread. it's wort taking a look at their current line-up of models, where they try to accomodate each taste with a small number of different engines, altering the cycle parts instead. HD does the same. The recent S. Garner operation went along this path to some degree, but focused mainly on the coffee shop racer theme, I think. The 961 isn't really a retro bike apart from the old school engine design, is it?
So, the 961 is hard to put into one of the above categories. I was (and still am) disappointed the S. Garner operation didn't offer a true touring bike, as a successor to the Commando Mk. 3, at least for short-distance touring (500 km / 320 miles).
Competing in the long distance touring market requires more torque and power (100 Nm+ and 100+ hp).
-Knut
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lcrken
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I understand what you're saying, Knut, but your description of what a modern Norton should be is already satisfied by any number of modern Japanese and European bikes. Part of the reason I like my 961 is that it was an attempt at modernizing the old Commando, but still keeping its 'soul', for lack of a better term. It's still powered by a large, air-cooled, 4-stroke, pushrod, parallel twin, packaged in an attractive and well handling chassis, with updated appearance that still shows it's Commando ancestry. But with modern suspension and brakes, digital engine management and fuel injection, electric starting, etc., it can be a real pleasure to ride, comparable in that respect to current bikes. It's still overweight, and has had it's other issues, but I probably wouldn't have bought it if it had a more modern DOHC, water-cooled engine. It might have still been a great bike, if a bit overpriced, but it wouldn't have reminded me of all the fun I've had with the original Commandos.
And I don't have anything against modern bikes. I've owned and enjoyed a number of them. I currently ride a modern Triumph 675 Street Triple, and really enjoy it. But it's not the same experience as riding my Nortons
. Still a great ride, but just doesn't scratch the same itch as riding a Norton does.Ken
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cliffa
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I bought a "Himmy" in February 2019. Has not missed a beat. I absolutely love it. (except for the seat, which I have replaced).
Thread here..
https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/anyone-got-or-ridden-a-himalayan.27096/
Cheers,
cliffa.
Fast Eddie
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EXACTLY !
And all of them perfectly capable motorcycles, and built for a price that wouldn’t even buy a 961s forks / shocks / brakes !
BritTwit
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I couldn’t agree more.
It was the look and the ride of the 961 that made me want one. Nothing else like it on the market. Some look great but don’t provide the ride experience that the 961 does. Some like the Triumph can produce an interesting ride, but not quite equal in the appearance.
I was just thinking what it would be like to put the Triumph 1200 mill into a higher performance chassis like the Harris chassis for the 865 Bonnie, with a few more ponies (TEC cam and improved airbox and exhaust) and produce a 110hp Norton 1200. You get the big twin feel with a few vibes, a great looking bike and mill, and significantly better performance all around. And no engine design/engineering costs required. So what if the engine is produced in the orient. Any future Norton is more likely than not to be produced there too, regrettably.
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It was very comfortable and flickable but I only ever used it for 30 mile country blasts. The 961 is far more involving and I wanted a bigger bike feel, i felt a bit big on the V7 at 6ft1 and pushing 100kgs
You are probably right and I respect anyone's desire and rationale for wanting the 961.
Apologies if my posting appeared to be attacking your choice of bike - that wasn't my intention. This is an owner's thread. I should have posted in a thread about manufacturing. Sorry guys.
-Knut
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MAK
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This just goes to show that producing a motorcycle that appeals! is a very complex and challenging concept.
Fast Eddie
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If it's the Triumph motor in a Harris chassis, where is the Norton part?
I'm not sure that you would improve the handling, more than likely it would go the other way.
The stock bike is already an incredible handler, 109 mph IOM lap. And it has a fairly light frame with alloy swingarm.
If you want more grunt and reliability, but want the Norton name, perhaps just buy the Thrux and put a Norton tank on it ( aftermarket not the stock Norton plastic job)
Glen
BritTwit
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The Norton part would be the frame and bodywork. The new Norton company could approach a company like Harris Engineering, which has extensive motorcycle chassis design experience. Commission them to design a premium frame for the Triumph 1200 motor. Harris already has the Harris Harrier frame for the older Hinckley 865 Bonnie. No other brand would have this frame/chassis. This would be uniquely Norton.
Then just contract with Triumph to furnish 500 or so of their 1200 twin motors with "Norton" emblazoned on their primary and timing covers.
This was my plan B
My plan A on a previous thread was the same thing.
I proposed to use the new SpeedTwin 1200, and re-badge the engine and produce new bodywork as a Norton.
Either way plan A or B you eliminate the need to design/engineer/test/develop a new motor.
The Triumph 1200 motor has now been in production for 5 years with excellent results.
Re-badging motors of one company for use in bikes of another is not uncommon.
Indian used AJS engines back in the 1960's
Cagiva used Ducati motors
Buell used HD motors (Yes highly modified)
Bimota has used Honda/Yamaha/Suzuki/Kawasaki/Ducati motors.
I would have the 1200 mill modified for extra HP by adding a TEC cam along with other mods to the airbox and exhaust to get maybe 12-15 more HP.
That would set the Norton apart from the Triumphs.
It's all about bootstrapping the company up into profitability.
If this became successful, at some point with the company ledgers in the black, they would have adequate finances to design new unique Norton engines.
Unlike a baby which has to learn to sit up before it can crawl, and crawl before it can stand, and stand before it can walk, and walk before it can run, SG wanted Norton to run before it could crawl. All of the V4 and 650 design and development work was well beyond the financial capabilities of Norton, and resulted in its ruination. Not to mention SG's corrupt behavior.
Just my 2 cents.
It would be different but I can't see it being better in any way. In one big way it would be inferior. That is, no Triumph warranty.
I've tested it and it's a good warranty, even after the official warranty has expired.
Triumph is already covering the low volume boutique cafe racer market with overpriced limited editions like the TFC and the RS versions.
They go down the road the same but at a greatly elevated price tag vs the R.
The R gave great value over the S by including braking, suspension and cosmetic upgrades at much lower than retail cost.
They have gone the other way with these limited editions.
Recognizing that we are all a bit snobbish and want something approaching unique, they put on a few doodads and jacked the price sky-high. Some have gone for it.
Easy profit maker for Triumph, they already had the bike, just change the appearance a bit and remarket as a high end Special.
At very little cost and no engineering, swap the lead acid R battery for a Li battery and then advertise the RS as a lighter bike.
Pretty clever really, we all love a lighter bike.
It doesn't have to be much lighter, just a bit lighter than the more common bike.
They do look a bit different and the high cost/lack of value keeps it to a limited number of buyers, so you get to feel exclusive.
The number who would go for a really expensive Norton branded version of the same bike without the solid Triumph warranty will be very, very small.
It might be fun just to build one just for yourself, however. I get that.
Glen
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Fast Eddie
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Just. Ain’t. Gonna. Happen !
As Glen says, nice idea for a special, but that’s all folks.
lcrken
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No harm, no foul, Knut. I wasn't offended by your comments, just wanted to make it clear why the 961 appeals to me pretty much as it is. Of course, I would like more power and less weight, as long as I could get it from the same basic design. And a lower price would be nice too
.Ken
I just stumbled upon an interview with Stuart Garner by Todd Halterman made late in 2017.
Q: In a perfect world, what characteristics should define a Norton Motorcycle and why should a rider want a new one?
SG: We believe our British heritage is key. We now have the opportunity to bring back an authentically hand-built British bike. We will never make tens of thousands of bikes or have hundreds of dealers globally. These factors will continue to make the bike an exclusive and sought-after machine, which in turn gives great pride of ownership. All these factors together then help the residual price stay very high, meaning that the bike will hold its value over the long-term. Here in the UK used bikes still command a premium over new.
Q: What kind of rider needs a Norton?
SG: Norton has a huge pedigree and over the years has built up an iconic status. For riders wanting huge speed and cheap performance, Norton motorcycles are not for you. If you want to enjoy real-world fun motorcycling and value the pride of ownership, we are the logical choice. We are looking to build exclusive beautiful bikes for the rider that enjoys all the things that motorcycling can bring. Our owners range from 24 to 82 years of age and from all walks of life. Motorcycling has a habit of leveling all the classes and when riding it brings us all together.
Q: If you had one thing to say to anyone who’s considering buying a new Norton Motorcycle, what would that be?
SG: You can trust both the factory and our dealers to support and look after you as one of the Norton family. This is not just for a new sale, but for many years after as you enjoy the pleasure of ownership that your Norton brings.
Q: It’s a tough market at the moment for motorcycle manufacturers. Who do you see as the top players in your market segment?
SG: Norton are quite different in our market position and don’t really have direct competitors for the Commando 961. Generally I think the quality US and European brands will do well going forwards, while the Japanese segment is crowded both in brands and models. This segment is going to come under increasing attack from other Far East manufacturers. These bikes are sold on numbers, price, horsepower, and speed. It’s an ever decreasing circle and looks really difficult for the companies to make money in this economic environment.
----
- Knut
Q: In a perfect world, what characteristics should define a Norton Motorcycle and why should a rider want a new one?
SG: We believe our British heritage is key. We now have the opportunity to bring back an authentically hand-built British bike. We will never make tens of thousands of bikes or have hundreds of dealers globally. These factors will continue to make the bike an exclusive and sought-after machine, which in turn gives great pride of ownership. All these factors together then help the residual price stay very high, meaning that the bike will hold its value over the long-term. Here in the UK used bikes still command a premium over new.
Q: What kind of rider needs a Norton?
SG: Norton has a huge pedigree and over the years has built up an iconic status. For riders wanting huge speed and cheap performance, Norton motorcycles are not for you. If you want to enjoy real-world fun motorcycling and value the pride of ownership, we are the logical choice. We are looking to build exclusive beautiful bikes for the rider that enjoys all the things that motorcycling can bring. Our owners range from 24 to 82 years of age and from all walks of life. Motorcycling has a habit of leveling all the classes and when riding it brings us all together.
Q: If you had one thing to say to anyone who’s considering buying a new Norton Motorcycle, what would that be?
SG: You can trust both the factory and our dealers to support and look after you as one of the Norton family. This is not just for a new sale, but for many years after as you enjoy the pleasure of ownership that your Norton brings.
Q: It’s a tough market at the moment for motorcycle manufacturers. Who do you see as the top players in your market segment?
SG: Norton are quite different in our market position and don’t really have direct competitors for the Commando 961. Generally I think the quality US and European brands will do well going forwards, while the Japanese segment is crowded both in brands and models. This segment is going to come under increasing attack from other Far East manufacturers. These bikes are sold on numbers, price, horsepower, and speed. It’s an ever decreasing circle and looks really difficult for the companies to make money in this economic environment.
----
- Knut
Fast Eddie
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Love the irony of that last quote !
So, whilst he’s building an ever complex and fragile house of cards built on unmanageable debt, he has a go at the big 4 Japanese super powers !
Glass houses and stone throwing ...?!
So, whilst he’s building an ever complex and fragile house of cards built on unmanageable debt, he has a go at the big 4 Japanese super powers !
Glass houses and stone throwing ...?!
BritTwit
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Irony indeed.
But Knut, you missed the last question that Halterman asked:
Q: How many 961s do you have to sell to make enough to buy a giraffe for your African game farm?
SG: Ahhhh, ahhh what? I gotta go. I have to pick up my Aston Martins at the service department.
But Knut, you missed the last question that Halterman asked:
Q: How many 961s do you have to sell to make enough to buy a giraffe for your African game farm?
SG: Ahhhh, ahhh what? I gotta go. I have to pick up my Aston Martins at the service department.
I didn't see that one!
Reverting to the true interview, SG delivered on many accounts and certainly knew his audience. You have to give the man some credit!
However, his assessment of the "ever decreasing circle" must have been made against better knowledge. It's the big ones who have the muscles to develop new engines compliant with EURO4 and EURO5 emission standards. I just learnt that Kawasaki did this with their retro bike W800 which is EURO4 compliant as of last year. It's the small companies which will be swept away by the tide of government regulations and volatile customer taste. OR they have to charge a premium making the bikes unobtainable to all but wealthy buyers.
To my surprise the Commando Mk2 was advertised as being EURO4 compliant as well. I am a bit impressed actually!
-Knut
Reverting to the true interview, SG delivered on many accounts and certainly knew his audience. You have to give the man some credit!
However, his assessment of the "ever decreasing circle" must have been made against better knowledge. It's the big ones who have the muscles to develop new engines compliant with EURO4 and EURO5 emission standards. I just learnt that Kawasaki did this with their retro bike W800 which is EURO4 compliant as of last year. It's the small companies which will be swept away by the tide of government regulations and volatile customer taste. OR they have to charge a premium making the bikes unobtainable to all but wealthy buyers.
To my surprise the Commando Mk2 was advertised as being EURO4 compliant as well. I am a bit impressed actually!
-Knut
cliffa
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FYI : Harris Engineering are now a part of Eicher Motors (who also own Royal Enfield). My guess is that Eicher would probably be more interested in buying the Norton name than providing parts to a competitor.
Cheers,
cliffa.
