Why Norton should definitely continue to build the 961

TonyA said:

I know this is just chatter , But how much will the Norton V4 be 44K pounds ? Last I looked a KAW ZX10R was $17,000 vs $56,000 for the V4SS . 3 for 1 looks like . But Honestly nobody is cross shopping KAW to Norton , it will be DUC to Norton or what else ?

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The point is, how many buyers of Ducati, BMW, Mv are going to check out and buy a Norton?
Ducati owners are loyal.

And as I keep mentioning, Age.
To the younger guys knowledge, he knows nothing about Norton. But he knows what Ducati is. And, he knows where he can buy one and that he can or could get service and parts for it nearly anywhere.

TVS can’t do that.

Let’s compare TVS Norton to CCM.
I’d love to buy a CCM, but I can’t here in the USA. I’m aware of who and what CCM is, but ask a 20 or 40 something year old and it’s a deer in headlights. Same with the Norton brand in that age group.

In my opinion, TVS right now, needs to ADVERTISE the hell out of their bike and THEY DONT. it boggles my mind.

The only people that really know about TVS Norton are…………..
NORTON OWNERS.

Come on guys, the negativity is deafening and they have’nt even opened the gates yet! Let’s dial it down and give them a chance. If we are not going to support the company that’s poured millions into trying to market Norton then who is? I strongly suspect that regardless of your years of motorcycling experience you do not know TVS Norton better than the people trying to make it succeed.

Stephen_Spencer said:

Come on guys, the negativity is deafening and they have’nt even opened the gates yet! Let’s dial it down and give them a chance. If we are not going to support the company that’s poured millions into trying to market Norton then who is? I strongly suspect that regardless of your years of motorcycling experience you do not know TVS Norton better than the people trying to make it succeed.

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Well I base what I say off of working in the industry and talking to dealers along with talking to ex Norton dealers. I am also in the state that has the highest motorcycle sales in the USA. Voodoo is correct using Harley as an example. Look at the average age of a Harley owner and its above 50. Tony makes a point about what is the possible cost. You can exclude 98% of the buying market on cost alone. There are 10 Ducati dealers within 100 miles of me with 8 of those being within 50 miles yet you don't see that many Ducati on the road or at the local popular spots but yet people recognize them as a premium brand or the Ferrari of motorcycles. Not a lot of people buying 20k plus motorcycles unless they are Harley. 95% of our customers haven't even heard of Norton when they see them both old and new in the shop.

To make your point, If TVS was trying to capture a certain market then where is the "marketing"? You think if they planned any scale of sales they would be advertising it not just issuing press releases. They haven't reached out to the old dealers(or new for that matter)I have spoke to and more importantly those dealers got hung out and lost customers because of that. Would you go back to a selling dealer who didn't handle your issues or wont work on the bike now? Besides those owners who like the brand, who is actually going to buy them?

Ducati sold 60,000 in 2021. You think TVS facility is less state of the art than Norton? Need to sell a lot of motorcycles and parts to support that .

Again to make my point about sales. How many 961's were actually sold? TVS probably has a close answer but not one person has said they sold this amount. Everyone speculates but what's the number? Even the number of members to this forum that own a 961 is less than 50? Less than 100? Can they make money off a 961 that someone else holds the engine on?

You have to have the US market to succeed in the high end market. So unless the its a race only bike you need to meet US EPA and CA EPA.

I think you will see smaller bikes and electric coming out of TVS which means they will be competing with Royal Enfield on a global market.

Regarding negativity. Its conversation that might be pointing out those negative flaws of an already designed bike but I would bet that if TVS is really on top of things, they will be watching these forums with keen interest to see what is being discussed. So with that I say keep posting thoughts etc. because while it might seem negative, it might actually help shape the direction of TVS in some small manner

City Garage said:

Well I base what I say off of working in the industry and talking to dealers along with talking to ex Norton dealers. I am also in the state that has the highest motorcycle sales in the USA. Voodoo is correct using Harley as an example. Look at the average age of a Harley owner and its above 50. Tony makes a point about what is the possible cost. You can exclude 98% of the buying market on cost alone. There are 10 Ducati dealers within 100 miles of me with 8 of those being within 50 miles yet you don't see that many Ducati on the rode or at the local popular spots but yet people recognize them as a premium brand or the Ferrari of motorcycles. Not a lot of people buying 20k plus motorcycles unless they are Harley. 95% of our customers haven't even heard of Norton when they see them both old and new in the shop.

To make your point, If TVS was trying to capture a certain market then where is the "marketing"? You think if they planned any scale of sales they would be advertising it not just issuing press releases. They haven't reached out to the old dealers(or new for that matter)I have spoke to and more importantly those dealers got hung out and lost customers because of that. Would you go back to a selling dealer who didn't handle your issues or wont work on the bike now? Besides those owners who like the brand, who is actually going to buy them?

Ducati sold 60,000 in 2021. You think TVS facility is less state of the art than Norton? Need to sell a lot of motorcycles and parts to support that .

Again to make my point about sales. How many 961's were actually sold? TVS probably has a close answer but not one person has said they sold this amount. Everyone speculates but what's the number? Even the number of members to this forum that own a 961 is less than 50? Less than 100? Can they make money off a 961 that someone else holds the engine on?

You have to have the US market to succeed in the high end market. So unless the its a race only bike you need to meet US EPA and CA EPA.

I think you will see smaller bikes and electric coming out of TVS which means they will be competing with Royal Enfield on a global market.

Regarding negativity. Its conversation that might be pointing out those negative flaws of an already designed bike but I would bet that if TVS is really on top of things, they will be watching these forums with keen interest to see what is being discussed. So with that I say keep posting thoughts etc. because while it might seem negative, it might actually help shape the direction of TVS in some small manner

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You nailed it! 100%.

Stephen_Spencer said:

Come on guys, the negativity is deafening and they have’nt even opened the gates yet! Let’s dial it down and give them a chance. If we are not going to support the company that’s poured millions into trying to market Norton then who is? I strongly suspect that regardless of your years of motorcycling experience you do not know TVS Norton better than the people trying to make it succeed.

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What’s negative about conversation or of the truth?
I want TVS to succeed, but I disagree with the way they are going about it all.

Do you think the money they invested into the Norton name is a lot?
16 million GBP is a lot of money. But how much would you think it would take to buy the Ducati, or Honda or Harley or BMW etc brand?

Go to a public place and ask 10 people what TVS is. Then ask them what Norton is. Now ask them what a Ducati or Honda is.

If you owned TVS, Wouldn’t you be advertising the Norton brand? wouldn’t you be spreading the news? Wouldn’t you be out there showing your product?

When’s the last time you seen anything from TVS Norton being mentioned? And I mean directly from them, not a forum member or hearsay.

The days of the ICE are numbered, and TVS is going to spend millions on ICE?
Isn’t 2035 the end of the ICE in the European market? That’s only 13 years away.

As already mentioned, they have no dealer network.
Are they planning to be a small brand like CCM and not sell to the USA market?
Are they planning to be like Tesla and sell direct from the manufacture?
Will Norton have it’s very only brand only dealership?
Or will they be sold next to other brands and a shared dealership?
When will they have a bike ready for purchase?
These are questions they haven’t answered.

Ill make it easy for everyone. Here is TVS in their own words

TVS spent GBP 16 million to purchase what assets etc of Norton Motorcycles Holdings Limited and Norton Motorcycles .

"Post-acquisition, a new state-of-the art facility is being created in Solar Park, Solihull near Coventry. "The facility will focus on producing high end premium motorcycles"


Now to the investor report.

"The company’s products would be sold in the UK to start with. Subsequently, the company would be selling its products in other European countries, the United States of America and other countries. Norton’s business prospects would depend on the economic activities and growth prospects in each of those geographies in which it operates. Having business spread over multiple geographies would help Norton manage this risk better. Customer preference to products will be critical to Norton’s business. As part of the growth plan Norton is focused on developing the customer attractive products portfolio which would be a mix of premium and super premium motorcycles. Products portfolio is expected to drive the top line and the growth of the business and will also attract the customers of all segments. The company is also working on creating and strengthening the distribution network both inside and outside of UK. Taking the brand and exploring the sales opportunities through digital media and social /networking platforms would also be part of the distribution strategy to reach global customers. With a strong distribution network, well developed supply chain, state of the art manufacturing facility, excellent design and engineering capabilities, delivering superior customer experience with a portfolio of products, the company will be making sustainable revenue and growth in the upcoming financial years. TVS Motor’s vendor network and the supply chain network will be constantly leveraged to bring more efficiencies in quality, cost and delivery."


Two things stick out. "Customer preference to products will be critical to Norton’s business" (no kidding right?) and "a mix of premium and super premium motorcycles."

I would imagine that many of you reading this haven't visited TVS site or looked at what they produce for the market. Also you'll notice that they don't sell to the USA and they call many of their current offerings "premium". They might want to dip into the super premium market but they are going to find its more crowded outside of India.

Also TVS sell about 200,000 two wheel units a month. Yes a month. So I would imagine for the Norton facility they would need a product that will sell well not a product that requires a certain type of buyer. Even at 30,000 GBP or $40,000 USD you still need to sell a lot of motorcycle to support a facility

I can't see them offering the Apache RR 310(yes a whopping 312 cc) to the US market under any name.

What does a scooter company that sells cheap, cookie cutter, massed produced scooters know about making a premium and super premium high performance “motorcycles”?

I would think it’s way easier to sell a scooter in a over populated Asian country, than it is to sell a high dollar “premium and super premium” motorcycle elsewhere in the world.

Where’s the portfolio they speak of outside the scooter market?
Porsche, Lamborghini and Ford also made tractors. Difference is, Ford made cars first, where Porsche and Lamborghini made tractors first.

If you follow TVS Norton on social media, it’s very quiet. I would think they would be adding new content at least monthly or quarterly.

Does anyone here know who Carroll Shelby is?
In the 60s he made one AC Cobra car. When the car magazines seen it, they all wanted to see it and report on it. So Carroll, only had that one car at the time, so he’d paint it a different color before each new magazine report. Seeming like he had more than one.

Is this the same for TVS?
One V4 and one CR?
But 20+ “classics”.

Reason I ask is, each time you see or hear of them, you never see more than one bike that they claim they are producing. If they are building more, where are they?

8000 bikes a year ?

All valid insight guys, viewed through the lense of your opinion on what TVS should be doing (and how they should be doing it) and your educated speculation on what their plan is for the short, medium and long term.

I hate to say obvious things, but as we all know the difficulty with opinion and speculation in an information vacuum is that they can often prove misguided. We all want TVS to succeed but there is a clear inference here that they are in some way incompetent and doomed to fail. I think a lot of us may also be viewing TVS Norton through the lense of Garner Norton; understandable as we are still living with the difficulties caused by the latter.

Of course we are going to fill the vacuum with conversation and conjecture about these matters, that’s what this forum is all about and long may it continue. But IMO there is room to do so in a more balanced manner, that recognises that we do not have key information about TVS plan and intent. They may well be monitoring this site, as are current and prospective owners.

I suspect TVS has not clarified key issues such as dealer networks etc because they are not yet in a position to do so. Opening up for business without such key information would be problematic to say the least. My 2p, let’s give TVS the time to open up and engage fully with the customer base.

Long live Norton.

And the likes of Tesla operate, in this country at least, with almost no dealer network and their cars are high in the sales figures here. So we shouldn’t necessarily assume a traditional sales model.

ntst8 said:

And the likes of Tesla operate, in this country at least, with almost no dealer network and their cars are high in the sales figures here. So we shouldn’t necessarily assume a traditional sales model.

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Except people actually want a Tesla and the word of mouth and other marketing gets the cars sold dealer or not. Tesla is not really a valid comparison though.

Stephen_Spencer said:

All valid insight guys, viewed through the lense of your opinion on what TVS should be doing (and how they should be doing it) and your educated speculation on what their plan is for the short, medium and long term.

I hate to say obvious things, but as we all know the difficulty with opinion and speculation in an information vacuum is that they can often prove misguided. We all want TVS to succeed but there is a clear inference here that they are in some way incompetent and doomed to fail. I think a lot of us may also be viewing TVS Norton through the lense of Garner Norton; understandable as we are still living with the difficulties caused by the latter.

Of course we are going to fill the vacuum with conversation and conjecture about these matters, that’s what this forum is all about and long may it continue. But IMO there is room to do so in a more balanced manner, that recognises that we do not have key information about TVS plan and intent. They may well be monitoring this site, as are current and prospective owners.

I suspect TVS has not clarified key issues such as dealer networks etc because they are not yet in a position to do so. Opening up for business without such key information would be problematic to say the least. My 2p, let’s give TVS the time to open up and engage fully with the customer base.

Long live Norton.

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Its not speculation when its taken from their own documents. If you'd like to see what they are saying to the people who actual invest in TVS it starts at page 355

https://www.tvsmotor.com/api/InvestorDownloadData?ItemId=6c90ec00-e5ae-4a6d-b202-cf72eda7af31

You should also read the Harley Davidson's 10k and quarterlies as they give insight into the companies direction and the motorcycle industry as a whole.


But Ill break it down a little further.

A new state of the art manufacturing facility is being established in Solar Park, Solihull and this facility will be "ready for production by Q1 of FY 2021-22"

A customer experience centre will also be a part of this facility which will enhance the customer experience about Norton brand vehicles and also would enable converting the leads into sales. UK sales only right now

This facility along with robust supply system will support Norton to deliver its future product plans. Commercial Production and sales from the new facility will commence during the first half of FY 2021-22. Well that didnt happen yet

Though the company has not taken over any liabilities or obligations as part of the acquisition, the company plans to to deliver the motorcycles to customers who had paid deposits and placed orders with the erstwhile Norton company. So are the mystery 961's for these people? How many people on this forum are "waiting" for a 961?

Since the primary focus during FY 2020-21 was on establishing the facility and starting up the operations there was no revenue from the sale of motorcycles to customers.

Nothing has been sold yet. What interesting to me in the information age that not one leak of information or pictures of motorcycles on the road for test rides etc. Not one employee saying we are in production on X

But ask the simple question. You invest 100 mil GBP your investors are going to expect a return on that investment. The math is simple. You need to sell a lot of motorcycles to cover that. And as all manufactures have learned its the parts, accessories and clothing that makes the real money.

I still think youll see Royal Enfield//Ural type products along with electric. Id love to have one of TVS super premium Tuk Tuk(seriously a hoped up electric one!)

Indian is another that has come and gone and come back but at least they have tons of part, accessories and marketing.

Then look at real super premium motorcycle companies. Confederate/Combat they have tons of new bikes for sale. What about Arch. Again lots of star power yet not a lot of sales. You would have thought as much as he likes Norton he would have a 961 . I'd even group Morgan into that struggle.

My point is that there are plenty of super, hyper or other premium brands that struggle for sales yet these would be the same customer base for TVS

And while on the rant what's up with the revival of UK brands that have died. TVR is also making a new car along with an Electric version. Even they had the marketing to start selling branded merch and they don't even have a product yet!


I think TVS will be successful. I hope they will be successful with the products they purchased(961, etc) as we service and repair a lot of 961's. I just don't think its going to be with a product like the 961 or the superbikes, I mean super premium motorcycles .

It would have to be UK sales to begin with, as they only have a batch of old 961's built..... which due to being euro4 bikes and not homologated to euro 5, would have to MSVA'd instead.

Whilst the points about ‘starting with a 2’ and also bhp per £/$ are all true and fair, they’re not exhaustive.

I’ve known a few Aston Martin owners. I’d bet that none of them knew exactly where their cars sat in a performance hierarchy against the ‘competition’. And even if they did, they didn’t care. In fact, I don’t think most would agree there was a defined ‘competition’.

They wanted an Aston. They test drove one and we’re blown away by the noise, the excitement, the speed. So they bought one.

Whether or not something else was faster or cheaper would have been utterly irrelevant to them!

I would imagine that’s the kind of market Norton is aiming at.

Fast Eddie said:

Whilst the points about ‘starting with a 2’ and also bhp per £/$ are all true and fair, they’re not exhaustive.

They wanted an Aston. They test drove one and we’re blown away by the noise, the excitement, the speed. So they bought one.

I would imagine that’s the kind of market Norton is aiming at.

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Which, as I said, is where the V4 was lacking....albeit for the noise, it certainly made noise.

Fast Eddie said:

Whilst the points about ‘starting with a 2’ and also bhp per £/$ are all true and fair, they’re not exhaustive.

I’ve known a few Aston Martin owners. I’d bet that none of them knew exactly where their cars sat in a performance hierarchy against the ‘competition’. And even if they did, they didn’t care. In fact, I don’t think most would agree there was a defined ‘competition’.

They wanted an Aston. They test drove one and we’re blown away by the noise, the excitement, the speed. So they bought one.

Whether or not something else was faster or cheaper would have been utterly irrelevant to them!

I would imagine that’s the kind of market Norton is aiming at.

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Precisely.
Also, about the 'starting with a 2' declaration; while this is a consideration especially for young owners, the young will not be buying these machines at £40+.
Also, any declaration from Mr Skinner is probably not worth much consideration, given his, and SG's track record.

We have no idea what TVS's ultimate marketing strategy is for selling Nortons.
I would think that they intend to use advertising to re-establish the Norton mystique/history/mythos as a purely British brand.
To the owner, buying a Norton will become owning a renewed British icon, a state of mind.

Fast Eddie said:

Whilst the points about ‘starting with a 2’ and also bhp per £/$ are all true and fair, they’re not exhaustive.

I’ve known a few Aston Martin owners. I’d bet that none of them knew exactly where their cars sat in a performance hierarchy against the ‘competition’. And even if they did, they didn’t care. In fact, I don’t think most would agree there was a defined ‘competition’.

They wanted an Aston. They test drove one and we’re blown away by the noise, the excitement, the speed. So they bought one.

Whether or not something else was faster or cheaper would have been utterly irrelevant to them!

I would imagine that’s the kind of market Norton is aiming at.

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I agree with you on the Aston. But. How many middle aged or senior guys are going to run out and buy a sport or hyper sport bike? Just gonna look at it?

Anyone can drive a sport car. Not so on a sport bike.

How many times does the press have to mention the words “state of the art”. “World class manufacturing”? Literally every article says this at least 5-10 times in every report.

It’s also clear that they are working towards electric motorcycles.

How British will the TVS Norton be? 100%? 90%? 50%?
I’m sure since TVS is Indian owned and has manufacturing in India, they’ll be using their other factory’s to produce parts in India.

They may engineer, design and assemble the bikes in the UK, but I’m interested to know how much is really made in the UK. It can’t be 100%

Voodooo said:

I agree with you on the Aston. But. How many middle aged or senior guys are going to run out and buy a sport or hyper sport bike? Just gonna look at it?

Anyone can drive a sport car. Not so on a sport bike.

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In many if not most cases ownership of such expensive toys is mainly for show and tell.
When I was building the 1360 Vincent Special Terry Prince was happy to hear I would be giving it a good whipping now and then.
He confided that most of his aging, well heeled male customers just want a machine that is unobtainium for lesser males.
He said"They want a "Coffee Shop Racer".
He explained that this is not at all the same as a Cafe Racer. The original Cafe Racers were modest bikes that were ridden hard.
The Coffee Shop Racer is an outrageously expensive and rare bike that only gets ridden a few gentle miles to the Coffee Shop. At the Coffee Shop, the bike, and by extension the owner, receive as much slathering adulation as possible.
Potter home afterward, success!

Glen