Why Norton should definitely continue to build the 961

City Garage said:
Speaking about the USA market only. Unfortunately the market has already soured on Norton along with a small network of soured dealers. You might find one dealer who might want to sell them as long as they aren't a service nightmare. The new version would need to be 100% well ok 99% flawless to get back any credibility on the 961. Using technology from 1999 is not the way to do it. I mean even some modern fuel injection would be a step up. We have taken apart a lot of the 961's and you can immediately see how poorly they are made. So much is design flaws that keep getting duplicated instead of fixed. Its not just small changes that need to be made, its a complete shift. Then once you do that you are back to getting the bike approved for a US Market which means passing CARB again. Will they go through all the trouble just to sell a handful of motorcycles? You can't answer that until you actually know how many they sold here in the first place. We have talked to some of the original dealers and the numbers sold don't add up to much. In fact no one actually knows how many are even in the USA. Also look at the classifieds over in the UK. Many new bikes still sitting for sale and last I looked 20-30 used on the market place that haven't moved much

The look of the motorcycle is what draws many in but to have something that is so inconsistent from one motorcycle to the next is just crazy. Its like the Delorean of motorcycles.
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Its like the Delorean of motorcycles.
I agree, but just without the coke.:p

Yeah, it has to be a redesign for the 961 to be viable in this market.
If the factory needs an indication of what success would mean, in numbers, they just need to look at Triumph and their modern classic twin line of machines. I believe it is their best selling category. Yes, Triumphs are priced to move, unlike Nortons, but I believe a well designed/manufactured, reliable Norton would sell quite well even at a "Norton" price point. Clearly, the bad press on the 961 killed sales. There are so many excellent, reliable motorcycles available today, people would have to be masochists to buy a motorcycle with the 961's reputation.
The good news is that there is really nothing cutting edge about the 961, it's all basic legacy, mid 20th century engineering stuff.
So a redesign should be quite easily do-able.
 
Clive said:
Wow where did all this Harley lurve come from? Yes I have a Humpy Dumpty as well - xg750a and it is an absolutely brilliant bike. Bought 90% practicality and 10% for the name. And because it was made in India some call it a Bad Bike (that is ‘60s bloke bad not cap on backwards Bad). Unless you are playing Top Trumps with speed,hp if a bike makes you happy it’s a Good Bike. There I just made all road tests irrelevant. Get yer leg over it and see if it makes you happy. Hey that’s good; I think I have a range of fridge magnets in the making!
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And that's the key point. I've owned a lot of different bikes - but had never owned a Harley. Deciding that I might go see what all the fuss was about, I test rode an FXDR and would rate it as the worst thing I've ever ridden. I tried a Breakout, and honestly after that was just about to give up. Then I rode a Low Rider S, and had made up my mind that it was the right bike a kilometer down the road. That's not to say the others aren't good bikes. I just don't want them.

All they really need to do is make a bike people want (which they have in their hand already), at a price people will pay, and an amount of risk people are willing to take.

And seriously. Merchandising. Whilst not my thing - do you reckon Harley makes more on t-shirts or bikes? TVS has a major opportunity there even without selling a single bike.
 
Clive said:
Wow where did all this Harley lurve come from? Yes I have a Humpy Dumpty as well - xg750a and it is an absolutely brilliant bike. Bought 90% practicality and 10% for the name. And because it was made in India some call it a Bad Bike (that is ‘60s bloke bad not cap on backwards Bad). Unless you are playing Top Trumps with speed,hp if a bike makes you happy it’s a Good Bike. There I just made all road tests irrelevant. Get yer leg over it and see if it makes you happy. Hey that’s good; I think I have a range of fridge magnets in the making.
Click to expand...
Probably better a good bike made in the wrong place vs a bad bike made in the right place!
 
worntorn said:
Ken, you've done well to get the 961 down to 491 wet.

Cycle had a wet weight of 520 for the stock bike.
After seeing an older friend hospitalized from a heavy bike tip over, I'm of the same mind, bikes with excessive weight are not of interest, characterful or otherwise.
I plan to trim about 25 pounds off the Thruxton this year to get it just under 450 fully fueled.
That's heavy enough.
I can see where the two light bikes I have here will become the favourites as I age and lose strength.

. I guess the 920 is also a MK3, sort of.

Glen
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It does help, but it's still the heaviest bike I own. I'm hoping to drop a few more pounds from it in future, but I've already picked the low hanging fruit, so any significant gains will be more difficult. But that's why I own more than one bike, right? At least enough of them to always have a ride, but still able to have some out of service for interesting projects.

Ken
 
I guess that I am in the worst category of ‘Hardly Drivable’ armchair critics, as a long time biker (of all sorts) that has never owned or ridden a Harley! I’m sure that it was nigh on compulsory to deride Harleys and Harley riders amongst my biking mates as I grew up. Wilful ignorance of course. Still not really interested in riding one though, but wouldn’t be surprised if I were impressed should I ever do so. HD have their own business difficulties though don’t they - something about modernising and staying relevant to modern bikers, plus covid of course?

The premise of the original post is sound. Harleys are characterful bikes with real heritage and (I guess) provide a visceral riding experience that is’nt really matched by anything else on the market. Ditto the Norton 961 - in spades! From a selfish perspective, I really hope that Norton Birmingham re-engineer the 961 well so that we can have access to compatible improvements.

Long live Norton (and HD, just don’t tell any of my mates that I said so:oops:!)
 
TonyA said:
The king of baggers (HD Wyman's Bike) is making 165 HP rear wheel .
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Yeah with crappy screaming beagle 131 parts. Other places such as Moonshine performance and Alpha performance are making 200 hp. I personally wouldn’t do a 200hp Milwaukee 8 motor, but it’s so easy and the potential to make 150+ hp with bolt ons. Cam swaps are a breeze on the HD.
 
City Garage said:
Speaking about the USA market only. Unfortunately the market has already soured on Norton along with a small network of soured dealers. You might find one dealer who might want to sell them as long as they aren't a service nightmare. The new version would need to be 100% well ok 99% flawless to get back any credibility on the 961. Using technology from 1999 is not the way to do it. I mean even some modern fuel injection would be a step up. We have taken apart a lot of the 961's and you can immediately see how poorly they are made. So much is design flaws that keep getting duplicated instead of fixed. Its not just small changes that need to be made, its a complete shift. Then once you do that you are back to getting the bike approved for a US Market which means passing CARB again. Will they go through all the trouble just to sell a handful of motorcycles? You can't answer that until you actually know how many they sold here in the first place. We have talked to some of the original dealers and the numbers sold don't add up to much. In fact no one actually knows how many are even in the USA. Also look at the classifieds over in the UK. Many new bikes still sitting for sale and last I looked 20-30 used on the market place that haven't moved much

The look of the motorcycle is what draws many in but to have something that is so inconsistent from one motorcycle to the next is just crazy. Its like the Delorean of motorcycles.
Click to expand...
You nailed it with the Delorean comparison. In fact Stuart and John may be the same person lol
 
Voodooo said:
Yeah with crappy screaming beagle 131 parts. Other places such as Moonshine performance and Alpha performance are making 200 hp. I personally wouldn’t do a 200hp Milwaukee 8 motor, but it’s so easy and the potential to make 150+ hp with bolt ons. Cam swaps are a breeze on the HD.
Click to expand...
Those King of Baggers have to get through a whole road race , not just a blast down the quarter mile .
 
Fast Eddie said:
I have a Harley. Yeah, yeah, I’ve heard all the jokes and snipes, but honestly, unless you’ve ridden a good one, for some distance, your opinions don’t count.

Modern Harleys actually offer very good real world performance. They go, stop and turn FAR better than most folk imagine possible. Actually their performance is far in excess of normal traffic conditions or legal limits. In fact, their performance is at least on a par with the kind of speeds most road riders are actually comfortable with.

AND they achieve this with utter reliability and comfort. Moreover they also achieve it with a style, heritage and above all, character that is basically unique.

Yes the Japanese make some great Harley clones that appeal to many, but the miss the mark significantly with style and heritage and they miss the mark totally with character.

Harleys, love or hate them, do offer a unique package. And that’s why, despite the pundits who slag them off, they keep selling.

WTF has this got to do with the thread title ??

Well, to my mind, the 961 has the potential to be exactly that kind of bike. If TVS can engineer out the (long list of) issues and actually create a reliable machine, then the 961 would be quite Harley like in its own niche. It offers great handling, good real world performance, and a style, heritage and above all characterful riding experience that is basically unmatched by anything.

Yes, of course Triumph and others offer bikes that look vaguely similar from 20ft, and they’re supremely reliable and offer great performance, but they don’t get close in terms of the characterful riding experience.

So, whilst I know they’re not for everyone (just like Harley’s), I’m pretty convinced that there is a viable market for the 961. But only if TVS can iron out the issues and keep up with regulatory requirements. It would also help if they could squeeze a tad more performance out of it and keep the price reaonable.

Anyway, that’s my thought for the day…
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I'd love to see more 961s built and sold
I wouldn't buy one because I don't like the style of them or the mechanical clatter
But I still want to see them about and successful
I'm just not sure where the market is ? I'd guess the older rider?
I have only ridden two Harley's and that was years ago and they were dire
I have no doubt the ones built now are infinitely better and can eat up the miles , for me it's more "some" of the owners and their attitudes towards "lesser" bike owners
As for taking flak for owning a Harley I doubt it's much worse than owning a British bike in the 70s when your mates owned reliable Japanese bikes !
It's just part of the game
Personally I like all bikes wherever they come from
 
TonyA said:
Those King of Baggers have to get through a whole road race , not just a blast down the quarter mile .
Click to expand...
I understand that. But screaming eagle parts are not of quality. Other brands offer better quality and performance. Plus those battle of the bagger bikes get rebuilt after each race.
 
baz said:
As for taking flak for owning a Harley I doubt it's much worse than owning a British bike in the 70s when your mates owned reliable Japanese bikes !
It's just part of the game
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I still get that when out on the old bikes.
Last fall it was the owner of an Indian built RE Enfield heaping scorn on the Norton.
Two weeks later, same ride and stop it was a Harley owner informing me that Nortons are junk because they vibrate so much. A Harley man complaining about Norton vibration. I think Harley was one of the very last makers to finally do something about their horribly vibratory bikes, and even then it was the rights to Norton iso system they purchased, if memory serves?

Apparently a friend of his had owned a P11 back in the day. He claimed it liked to lose bolts and headlight filaments.
I did tell him that the Commando engine is rubber mounted and the bike is very smooth, but he wasn't listening.

These folks see a nice looking old classic bike and feel the need to walk over to let you know that your ride is greatly inferior to their ride.
Its fun with the Thruxton R as they are just getting wound up telling me how godawful all British bikes are when I inform them that it is Asian built ( I leave out the British designed part, that would make it bad again!)
This news creates total bewilderment.
Sometimes it's better just to keep riding, don't bother stopping.

Glen
 
worntorn said:
I still get that when out on the old bikes.
Last fall it was the owner of an Indian built RE Enfield heaping scorn on the Norton.
Two weeks later, same ride and stop it was a Harley owner informing me that Nortons are junk because they vibrate so much. A Harley man complaining about Norton vibration. I think Harley was one of the very last makers to finally do something about their horribly vibratory bikes, and even then it was the rights to Norton iso system they purchased, if memory serves?

Apparently a friend of his had owned a P11 back in the day. He claimed it liked to lose bolts and headlight filaments.
I did tell him that the Commando engine is rubber mounted and the bike is very smooth, but he wasn't listening.

These folks see a nice looking old classic bike and feel the need to walk over to let you know that your ride is greatly inferior to their ride.
Its fun with the Thruxton R as they are just getting wound up telling me how godawful all British bikes are when I inform them that it is Asian built ( I leave out the British designed part, that would make it bad again!)
This news creates total bewilderment.
Sometimes it's better just to keep riding, don't bother stopping.

Glen
Click to expand...
That's funny you saying about the commando vibration
I had exactly the same comment not too long ago "I couldn't ride one of those Norton's they vibrate too much" I was reliably informed !!!!
I once took my A10 to the local Kawasaki dealer for an MOT
The inspector told me he hated British bikes and they should all be melted down for "pig iron" he gave that bike the most thorough MOT you have ever seen !
He checked/rang every single spoke,he went over every little detail trying to find fault
In the end he failed it in beam alignment
I had to undo the headlight and move the lense a mm or two because the lense location tangs had bent outwards allowing it to rotate
He then grudgingly passed my bike fit
But that was nothing compared to what you got years ago when riding an old brit bike !!!
I was once at" high beech " it's a Mecca for a bike meet on a Sunday
There were a group of Harley riders there and one came over to talk I thought to all of us
We were a mixed bag in our group I was on my triumph my mate on a z1000 one on a gs750 etc and my mate on a Sportster
This Harley rider would only talk to my mate with the Harley
He didn't even acknowledge our presence
When he left my mate said don't worry about it he won't talk to anyone that doesn't own a Harley!!!
I thought it was hilarious and still do , I'll never forget that
 
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I always laugh when anyone thinks a Commando vibrates.

Like, there's vibration and then there's:

Why Norton should definitely continue to build the 961
 
I met two guys with those kind of things in a petrol station when I was out on my 961.

They had each spent more than I had on my 961 !!

I remained polite and courteous in our conversation (just as my Mum always told me to), but I really did not get it !

They weren’t young lads, or small either, so riding them created quite an ‘image’.

Ah well, unto each his own…
 
City Garage said:
Speaking about the USA market only. Unfortunately the market has already soured on Norton along with a small network of soured dealers. You might find one dealer who might want to sell them as long as they aren't a service nightmare. The new version would need to be 100% well ok 99% flawless to get back any credibility on the 961. Using technology from 1999 is not the way to do it. I mean even some modern fuel injection would be a step up. We have taken apart a lot of the 961's and you can immediately see how poorly they are made. So much is design flaws that keep getting duplicated instead of fixed. Its not just small changes that need to be made, its a complete shift. Then once you do that you are back to getting the bike approved for a US Market which means passing CARB again. Will they go through all the trouble just to sell a handful of motorcycles? You can't answer that until you actually know how many they sold here in the first place. We have talked to some of the original dealers and the numbers sold don't add up to much. In fact no one actually knows how many are even in the USA. Also look at the classifieds over in the UK. Many new bikes still sitting for sale and last I looked 20-30 used on the market place that haven't moved much

The look of the motorcycle is what draws many in but to have something that is so inconsistent from one motorcycle to the next is just crazy. Its like the Delorean of motorcycles.
Click to expand...

A great bit of perspective, thank you... To (mis)quote my birthday sharing pal Robbie Burns:

'What greater gift the Lord could gi' us.... Than to see ourselves as others see us..'

I think us Brits sometimes lose sight of how the rest of the world perceives our favourite toys.
 
City Garage said:
Speaking about the USA market only. Unfortunately the market has already soured on Norton along with a small network of soured dealers. You might find one dealer who might want to sell them as long as they aren't a service nightmare. The new version would need to be 100% well ok 99% flawless to get back any credibility on the 961. Using technology from 1999 is not the way to do it. I mean even some modern fuel injection would be a step up. We have taken apart a lot of the 961's and you can immediately see how poorly they are made. So much is design flaws that keep getting duplicated instead of fixed. Its not just small changes that need to be made, its a complete shift. Then once you do that you are back to getting the bike approved for a US Market which means passing CARB again. Will they go through all the trouble just to sell a handful of motorcycles? You can't answer that until you actually know how many they sold here in the first place. We have talked to some of the original dealers and the numbers sold don't add up to much. In fact no one actually knows how many are even in the USA. Also look at the classifieds over in the UK. Many new bikes still sitting for sale and last I looked 20-30 used on the market place that haven't moved much

The look of the motorcycle is what draws many in but to have something that is so inconsistent from one motorcycle to the next is just crazy. Its like the Delorean of motorcycles.
Click to expand...
Yep, as a 'hands on' owner I've been amazed at the deficiency of R&D in the 961. Just a little more thought and ..? But I luv it.
As I've announced elsewhere, I had a Duke 916 Strada for 18 years and my mates laughed at all the stuff that was missing when I got home. It destroyed clutches, ate rectifiers, blew bulbs, shook callipers loose, split zoorst mounts and sometimes left me sat at the side of the road sobbing.
I luv'd that bike too - coz I was 'involved'.
The problem I see for TVS and the future of the 961 is the air cooled motor. In Europe (UK) they want everything in a liquid cooled jacket.
And they want 'em quiet, too.
Personally, the 961 sounds great and so much like my old Duke but as one of my mates once said, 'Jon, your funkin Duke engine alone makes more noise than my whole bike' - he had a 'Blade' (and if you didn't know, that's a Honda, I think).
But to satisfy the Nay-Sayers, TVS could collaborate and build one of these ...

Why Norton should definitely continue to build the 961
 
Here's the problem. The bike below already exists. All high spec, alloy swing arm and so on. Established manufacturer, reliable bikes, full dealer network and good warranty. Already out in the market for 7 years now with various finishes, well tested.
Expensive but not silly money.

 
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Jon said:
Yep, as a 'hands on' owner I've been amazed at the deficiency of R&D in the 961. Just a little more thought and ..? But I luv it.
As I've announced elsewhere, I had a Duke 916 Strada for 18 years and my mates laughed at all the stuff that was missing when I got home. It destroyed clutches, ate rectifiers, blew bulbs, shook callipers loose, split zoorst mounts and sometimes left me sat at the side of the road sobbing.
I luv'd that bike too - coz I was 'involved'.
The problem I see for TVS and the future of the 961 is the air cooled motor. In Europe (UK) they want everything in a liquid cooled jacket.
And they want 'em quiet, too.
Personally, the 961 sounds great and so much like my old Duke but as one of my mates once said, 'Jon, your funkin Duke engine alone makes more noise than my whole bike' - he had a 'Blade' (and if you didn't know, that's a Honda, I think).
But to satisfy the Nay-Sayers, TVS could collaborate and build one of these ...

View attachment 86543
Click to expand...
Hi Jon , a photoshop image ?
 
TonyA said:
Hi Jon , a photoshop image ?
Click to expand...
Yep, yer correct - but not a totally mad concept.
In reality it would never have the 'balls out' sound, feel and character of the Norton lump but have reliability by the barrow-load.
 

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