Why Norton should definitely continue to build the 961

Gojuu said:

Thankfully they have (at least) $100million hole in their pocket.

That's a fair incentive to get it right. And the brand hero isn't the V4.

Ask Triumph which of their bikes carry the brand.

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That 100 million in the hole isnt, nor hasn’t changed anything for us at all.

Gojuu said:

That's a fair incentive to get it right. And the brand hero isn't the V4.

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Not yet, but the V4 will be pushed out first, so it will have to be the brand hero initially.
If not, TVS could have serious second thoughts about the brand.
They are burying a lot of cash into the V4 redux, if it lays an egg, there will be unfortunate repercussions.

Also, if TVS can turn out and sell 1500 or 2000 V4's with good reviews, they will have exceeded SG's production of 961's, and with many happy owners. I think that will make the V4 the brand hero to Norton (TVS).

The success of the V4 will reinforce the belief at TVS in the Norton brand, and encourage them to invest in R&D of new models.
Who knows, maybe even a new Commando twin.

The V4 must succeed!

BritTwit said:

Not yet, but the V4 will be pushed out first, so it will have to be the brand hero initially.
If not, TVS could have serious second thoughts about the brand.
They are burying a lot of cash into the V4 redux, if it lays an egg, there will be unfortunate repercussions.

Also, if TVS can turn out and sell 1500 or 2000 V4's with good reviews, they will have exceeded SG's production of 961's, and with many happy owners. I think that will make the V4 the brand hero to Norton (TVS).

The success of the V4 will reinforce the belief at TVS in the Norton brand, and encourage them to invest in R&D of new models.
Who knows, maybe even a new Commando twin.

The V4 must succeed!

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I agree with that. The road may littered with non-functioning 961’s along the road to victory.

City Garage said:

I think most of that is because they don't have the parts or won't make them again.

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Nope, just cant make them as Norton own the rights. I had this when trying to purchase the latest revision head temp senders. I contacted Jumo with the numbers off the sensor, they replied to say its a Norton only part and that they had forwarded my enquiry to Norton. I explained the situation in that Norton are currently not supplying, and that I needed one for a customers bike. Jumo enquired with Norton with regards selling to me directly....Norton said no. Same with Jenvy....wont let me buy direct. Ritchie Engineering is also the same....as is the printers over in Long Eaton who used to do the service books etc.

I had the same response from Jenvey.

Stu Bodycote said:

Nope, just cant make them as Norton own the rights. I had this when trying to purchase the latest revision head temp senders. I contacted Jumo with the numbers off the sensor, they replied to say its a Norton only part and that they had forwarded my enquiry to Norton. I explained the situation in that Norton are currently not supplying, and that I needed one for a customers bike. Jumo enquired with Norton with regards selling to me directly....Norton said no. Same with Jenvy....wont let me buy direct. Ritchie Engineering is also the same....as is the printers over in Long Eaton who used to do the service books etc.

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Thank You

BritTwit said:

Not yet, but the V4 will be pushed out first, so it will have to be the brand hero initially.
If not, TVS could have serious second thoughts about the brand.
They are burying a lot of cash into the V4 redux, if it lays an egg, there will be unfortunate repercussions.

Also, if TVS can turn out and sell 1500 or 2000 V4's with good reviews, they will have exceeded SG's production of 961's, and with many happy owners. I think that will make the V4 the brand hero to Norton (TVS).

The success of the V4 will reinforce the belief at TVS in the Norton brand, and encourage them to invest in R&D of new models.
Who knows, maybe even a new Commando twin.

The V4 must succeed!

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Norton has a very very very long road ahead to even come close to Ducati, BMW, and the Japanese bikes.

I wish Norton well, but from the bikes they already shown on display, in a performance numbers game, they already missed the mark. By the time they get a bike available to the public, ICE will be a thing of the past.

Also, how are they going to sell the Norton brand of bike? They don’t even have a dealer network anywhere nor have they even talked about one. It’s been very quite lately.

Who’s going to buy a new Norton? I’m 50 years old, how many people my age or older is going to buy a super bike? And I’m sorry to say, but most people younger than me, don’t even know who or what Norton is. Especially in my side of the globe.

It is frustrating that things are developing so slowly at TVS and in the absence of a full understanding of the reasons, we appear to be filling this gap in time with speculation and dare I say it, a degree of negativity.

TVS obviously have a plan and have committed a lot of money and resources to make sure that it succeeds - as far as you can in this very competitive industry. One way to almost guarantee that it fails is to go off ‘half-cocked’. Everybody (industry, press, customer base) will be looking for signs of old Norton and some maybe even expecting it. TVS (Norton) have to get things right from the outset or they will likely get buried and that may well mean the end-end of Norton.

I’m choosing to keep an open mind and wait, remaining (very) hopeful that their plan works. In the meantime I ride my bike sparingly. It would be really interesting to know how many of our number actually have unridable 961’s because of a lack of spares availability or dealer support. Or are the vast majority doing what we bikers have always done, using our ingenuity and any and all resources available to keep our bikes on the road.

Long live Norton.

I don't think the V4 will compete an a purely performance level with the offerings from other companies. They will once again be an exclusive brand. Only individuals with the cash, and the desire to own something special will be buying V4s. Young kids who want a sportbike/superbike will not be able to afford £40. Obviously, this means Norton will not be selling 10,000, or 15,000 or so units like Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, even if they had the capacity to manufacture that many, and they don't and won't.

If Norton do succeed and produce a reliable, and powerful (albeit less powerful than other superbikes) V4, there will be dealers who will be willing to sell them on a per unit basis, without factory dealerships. However, the V4 will have to be reliable, and Norton will have to offer parts to these dealers.

Initially, the V4 buyers will be people who know the Norton brand, or at least know of the Norton history. So this means older folks who have sufficient disposable income. These folks will especially enjoy the exclusivity of the brand (low production numbers.) If the bike is met with good press and reviews, the general biking public will take notice, and others who can afford the brand, but who may not be familiar with the Norton brand will become interested, as either a collectible, or an investment.

Everything depends on the product having modern features, performance, and reliability, no excuses!

BritTwit said:

I don't think the V4 will compete an a purely performance level with the offerings from other companies. They will once again be an exclusive brand. Only individuals with the cash, and the desire to own something special will be buying V4s. Young kids who want a sportbike/superbike will not be able to afford £40. Obviously, this means Norton will not be selling 10,000, or 15,000 or so units like Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, even if they had the capacity to manufacture that many, and they don't and won't.

If Norton do succeed and produce a reliable, and powerful (albeit less powerful than other superbikes) V4, there will be dealers who will be willing to sell them on a per unit basis, without factory dealerships. However, the V4 will have to be reliable, and Norton will have to offer parts to these dealers.

Initially, the V4 buyers will be people who know the Norton brand, or at least know of the Norton history. So this means older folks who have sufficient disposable income. These folks will especially enjoy the exclusivity of the brand (low production numbers.) If the bike is met with good press and reviews, the general biking public will take notice, and others who can afford the brand, but who may not be familiar with the Norton brand will become interested, as either a collectible, or an investment.

Everything depends on the product having modern features, performance, and reliability, no excuses!

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I’d like to know how many people on this very forum, would buy a brand new TVS Norton today if one were available?

Let’s say the bikes they had on display (minus the Commando classic) who here would buy one now?

TVS can’t stay in a profitable business selling just boutique bikes. I know Garner was a crook, but his bike line up was in the right direction. I was really hoping for the superlite and the atlas bikes to come to market.

If the superlite and Atlas were available today as seen when Conman Garner was running the show, I would of bought one then.

I’m just sour and kinda over the whole thing in some ways, I know I’m expecting to much to soon, but I just don’t see the TVS plan or though process. I know they want to produce a quality motorcycle, but I disagree with their lack of information and direction.

It’s 2022, it’s very easy to share info on social media, forums, etc. we’re all left in the dark and no light at the end of the tunnel. I’m not saying daily, weekly updates, but a quarterly update would be nice and help the company draw public interest. Throw a dog a bone TVS. Come on already.

I know a lot of people who say they would buy an Atlas tomorrow. I personally loved the Superlight and ordered one, but I believe that’s a super niche of a niche market.

I can’t believe TVS aren’t aware of the potential popularity of the Atlas range and am certain they must be doing something with it behind the scenes. But, that is a more price sensitive market, so my money is definitely on them being built in a low cost country, in volume. And sadly, I doubt the Superlight will see the light of day.

Regarding the V4, I strongly believe they’ll sell. Garner managed to sell them even though they were all one off prototypes! When people see the rave reviews, and feel satisfied they’re a well developed bike with back up, they will sell. I doubt many of us on this forum will be in that club, but they will sell.

My thoughts on the 961 were the basis of this thread, I feel strongly that they should continue with it and that there is a market for it.

We’ll all just have to wait n see…

The V4 was massively behind on speed. If they're looking towards the next generation of Norton owners ie a younger crowd, then the performance needs addressing as much as the reliability. I found the V4 mega exciting to ride, but only because of what I was riding and not because of how it was performing. Handling was excellent though, really surprised me.

Stu Bodycote said:

The V4 was massively behind on speed. If they're looking towards the next generation of Norton owners ie a younger crowd, then the performance needs addressing as much as the reliability. I found the V4 mega exciting to ride, but only because of what I was riding and not because of how it was performing. Handling was excellent though, really surprised me.

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Are you saying 185 HP is not enough ? Needs to start with a 2 as Skinner once said ? Seems like it will be pretty fast , But not fast like the big 7 ( Honda , Kawasaki , Suzuki , Yamaha , BMW , KTM , Ducati ) ? Or do you mean massively behind as in IOM TT where they've got to crack 220 at Sulby straight ? Or is it 206 , but as Skinner said its got to start with a 2 ! Please lets be clear ...

Power figures were all over the place, not consistent on the dyno at all. But yes, in this age if it doesn't start with a 2 then who's interested, in the super bike world? The proposed figures were about right back in 2016....but a lot has happened in 7yrs.
Dyno and pub talk aside though, I'm talking about the thrill of the ride with regards speed. And for me, it didnt really hit that button....no mega rush that had me saying "fuck me this is FAST!". But, the thrill of the ride was definitely there in that Im riding the Norton V4....that was exciting every time.
But lets be very clear in the understanding that the TT bike shared very little with the production bike, and as such they should not be compared as a like for like.

Stu Bodycote said:

Power figures were all over the place, not consistent on the dyno at all. But yes, in this age if it doesn't start with a 2 then who's interested, in the super bike world? The proposed figures were about right back in 2016....but a lot has happened in 7yrs.
Dyno and pub talk aside though, I'm talking about the thrill of the ride with regards speed. And for me, it didnt really hit that button....no mega rush that had me saying "fuck me this is FAST!". But, the thrill of the ride was definitely there in that Im riding the Norton V4....that was exciting every time.

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To be honest with myself though, I'm being rather harsh. The bike was still in development, the whole thing was still in development not just the bike, the production of the bike too. The fact it actually worked on the road as a general package, prooves they were going in the right direction with it.....it was just a tough slog for quite a young design team, with the tools and experience they had to call upon (remembering that Skinners design involvement was to design the looks etc...it was the various design teams job to make it work)....more money....more time....it would have gotten there eventually, but by the time they'd have gotten to where the goal posts stood, the bigger boys would have move the posts even further away.
Would I buy a SG era V4 if I had the funds and the missus would allow me? Most certainly a big yes. Would I buy a TVS clinically built V4 if I had the same funds (and permission)....no...I'd go visit the lads at my local Ducati dealership.

Sorry, gone off on a tangent.
Should they carrying on producing a 961? It's already had a decade long run, imo that's plenty. Certainly support it, and it's owners...but move on with a new production bike looking to the future.

Well that's not a glowing report , but honest. Will the TVS version be too bland for you ? Or is it for the money just too much for what you get ?

I think its pretty glowing in that above all its apparent flaws, I'd still buy one.
TVS keep bragging about state of the art facilities etc, perfect working environment and all the equipment in the world. But at present its still a new kid on the block who bought a posh watch to flash about in the clubs to get into the vip section. Ive a connection with the old V4...I and others put a lot of hours into it. If I was buying a new bike of that financial level, the new Norton just wouldn't get a look in.

I agree with Stu Bodycote 100%.
TVS talks more about their state of the art facility, and WAY less about anything they’re working on bike wise.

Guess who else has state of the art facility? Ducati, BMW, KTM, so does MV Agusta and many others. And they’re making bikes and sharing info on their progress.

I love the 961 Commando and Dominator, but as Stu said, it’s days have come. If anyone wanted one in the past, they had their chances for 10 years to get one. But I do agree to keep spare parts available for at least 5 more years.

If TVS decides to offer the cafe racer bike, it needs to have a minimum of 180 hp to be competitive. By competitive I mean in the performance sector. Anyone 40 years old and younger is more interested in speed and performance numbers.

Same for the V4, it must have 200 minimum hp or they failed and missed the mark.

I’m aware that the TVS bikes will be carbon, billet aluminum, detailed etc, but performance numbers sell. Especially to younger buyers. What would you say is the youngest buyer of the 961 bikes?

I don’t think you seen any late 20 to early 30 year old guys running out to buy a 961 when they were available. But look how many in this age bracket buy sport and super bikes.
Retro looks are cool and it does sell. But for how long and how long will that buyer be buying?

This reminds me of the Harley Davidson market. Baby boomers. Harley catered to them for decades and once baby boomers started dying off of getting to old to buy new bikes, Harley sales started to drop. They were refusing to change their bike line up. I give them a A+ for effort thinking outside the box with the Livewire and now the Pan America, Sportster S but they also need to get with the times.
They still don’t even use LED turn signals on their brand new bikes.

They should open the merchandise sales, gather the demographics of who is buying what, and target their bikes that way.

T-shits will tell them who wants their brand. Facebook and social media scraping is already telling them.

They put their most recent ‘TVS” bike I. A raffle at a museum. Who’s that tell you they think their market is?

I believe they will wind up the V4 very quickly.

Stu Bodycote said:

I think its pretty glowing in that above all its apparent flaws, I'd still buy one.
TVS keep bragging about state of the art facilities etc, perfect working environment and all the equipment in the world. But at present its still a new kid on the block who bought a posh watch to flash about in the clubs to get into the vip section. Ive a connection with the old V4...I and others put a lot of hours into it. If I was buying a new bike of that financial level, the new Norton just wouldn't get a look in.

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I know this is just chatter , But how much will the Norton V4 be 44K pounds ? Last I looked a KAW ZX10R was $17,000 vs $56,000 for the V4SS . 3 for 1 looks like . But Honestly nobody is cross shopping KAW to Norton , it will be DUC to Norton or what else ?