Why does the 961 vibrate so much ?

I'm sorry if I missed this, but I've never seen what a "new" one actually costs. I've seen some prices and then some upgrade costs, but what is the out-the-door cost of a new 961. I guess minus the "discount" :eek:
 
Voodooo said:
I can’t believe anyone here would actually think that TVS would really spend the time and R&D going over the 961.
Their main concerns were telling everyone of the multiple millions they’ve spent building the new factory.
Not the hundreds of thousands of dollars to go over the 961.
R&D cost money.
Building a factory cost money.
Fixing mistakes from suppliers and from the previous owners cost money.

The 961 sold before, and it’s selling now.
The Good. The bad. And the ugly.
It’s selling enough to make a small profit, more than if they wasted money in improvements.

Why do you think they refuse to tell off of the 300 parts they changed or addressed.
How many fuses and relays on a 961?
How many bolts?
How many gaskets?
Etc etc
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OK Voodoo I’m gonna take the bait, at the risk of garnering your usual response🤣!

I’m not sure that we can deny what we are actually seeing can we? There have been multiple confirmations of changed or amended parts/components. I won’t bother listing them, Tony refers to just one above.

Stu is doing a whole series of videos identifying what those changes are as he uncovers them - I think I’m right in saying that he has a Solihull engine and is systematically stripping it to identify internal changes.

The internal changes are more difficult to identify of course and isolated instances of continued vibration (perception - how much is too much) and high idle might indicate those problems are still prevalent. The bikes are under warranty, so let’s see how Norton performs. Apparently they’ve been pretty responsive so far.

Everyone (and their dog) wishes that they would fully disclose all changes (whatever form that would take) and we have discussed the potential reasons for not doing so ad-infinitum; chief amongst them IMO is that it would become apparent they had exaggerated those changes to place maximum distance between old and new models. Changed 30% - I don’t think so! But I’m not sure stating that they haven’t made any changes because they won’t disclose them is a valid proposition.

Norton issued this forum (and the NOC) with a list of the main changes - we’ve all seen it. It is only a matter of time before Stu, others and the passage of time identify each and every one of them (or their absence) and we will have our full picture.

I come in peace!!

And before you say it mate, no: I don’t think TVS is the best manufacturer, nor the 961 the best bike ever; I don’t want Gladwell’s love child, nor am having plastic surgery to take his likeness and no, I am definitely not changing my name to Tony Vincent Spencer!😂

Steve.
 
City Garage said:
I'm sorry if I missed this, but I've never seen what a "new" one actually costs. I've seen some prices and then some upgrade costs, but what is the out-the-door cost of a new 961. I guess minus the "discount" :eek:
Click to expand...

£16,999​

Standard Commando 961 SP
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
OK Voodoo I’m gonna take the bait, at the risk of garnering your usual response🤣!

I’m not sure that we can deny what we are actually seeing can we? There have been multiple confirmations of changed or amended parts/components. I won’t bother listing them, Tony refers to just one above.

Stu is doing a whole series of videos identifying what those changes are as he uncovers them - I think I’m right in saying that he has a Solihull engine and is systematically stripping it to identify internal changes.

The internal changes are more difficult to identify of course and isolated instances of continued vibration (perception - how much is too much) and high idle might indicate those problems are still prevalent. The bikes are under warranty, so let’s see how Norton performs. Apparently they’ve been pretty responsive so far.

Everyone (and their dog) wishes that they would fully disclose all changes (whatever form that would take) and we have discussed the potential reasons for not doing so ad-infinitum; chief amongst them IMO is that it would become apparent they had exaggerated those changes to place maximum distance between old and new models. Changed 30% - I don’t think so! But I’m not sure stating that they haven’t made any changes because they won’t disclose them is a valid proposition.

Norton issued this forum (and the NOC) with a list of the main changes - we’ve all seen it. It is only a matter of time before Stu, others and the passage of time identify each and every one of them (or their absence) and we will have our full picture.

I come in peace!!

And before you say it mate, no: I don’t think TVS is the best manufacturer, nor the 961 the best bike ever; I don’t want Gladwell’s love child, nor am having plastic surgery to take his likeness and no, I am definitely not changing my name to Tony Vincent Spencer!😂

Steve.
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I didn’t read him saying they have not done any changes. I read him saying they’ve probably not invested in fundamental changes that require costly redesign... and don’t want to admit this.

Which is basically saying the same thing as you, ie they’ve exaggerated the topic for marketing purposes.

It’s very easy, and cheap, to change the spec or supplier of a nut, bolt and washer and have 3 new part numbers. Go through the bike doing this and you get a big list quickly.

OTOH it’s good to see some of the real changes as identified by Stu. However I have been wondering why he’s gone quiet on this… is he too busy… or has he been silenced by ‘the man’… ??
 
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I was looking closely at the new 961s until fairly recently. As I’ve mentioned before, a big reason for selling mine was the horrendous, and clearly ‘wrong’ primary clatter. So hearing reports of this on new ones was an instant turn off for me. As someone with an engineering background, something like that is the tip of the iceberg and I just think “if they didn’t even get that sorted, what else have they not done”?

I sincerely hope these reports turn out to be isolated.

But… IF they have penny pinched in order to protect profit then I’d argue they got it very wrong.

They should not be focusing on making a profit on the 961, the volume is so low that any profit per machine is irrelevant in the scheme of things.

Instead they should be looking at this as a part of the whole brand building effort / investment. As a chance to showcase their core engineering ability and commitment to quality. In doing so they’d be cementing their reputation for future models and sales.

Otherwise they risk actually demonstrating the opposite in that they don’t have an impressive core engineering ability or commitment to quality. This would not be good when trying to sell future new models…
 
Fast Eddie said:
I was looking closely at the new 961s until fairly recently. As I’ve mentioned before, a big reason for selling mine was the horrendous, and clearly ‘wrong’ primary clatter. So hearing reports of this on new ones was an instant turn off for me. As someone with an engineering background, something like that is the tip of the iceberg and I just think “if they didn’t even get that sorted, what else have they not done”?

I sincerely hope these reports turn out to be isolated.
-
But… IF they have penny pinched in order to protect profit then I’d argue they got it very wrong.

They should not be focusing on making a profit on the 961, the volume is so low that any profit per machine is irrelevant in the scheme of things.

Instead they should be looking at this as a part of the whole brand building effort / investment. As a chance to showcase their core engineering ability and commitment to quality. In doing so they’d be cementing their reputation for future models and sales.

Otherwise they risk actually demonstrating the opposite in that they don’t have an impressive core engineering ability or commitment to quality. This would not be good when trying to sell future new models…
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Agreed FE. But I don’t think we should make too much out of the ‘clatter’ issue just yet. From what I can see we are talking of an isolated instance here - literally one. Noting also that I don’t believe he was a legacy owner, so no reference point other than previous vintage bike ownership apparently. We have accounts here on the forum from legacy owners that note a marked improvement, if I remember rightly.

I thing Norton would be well aware of the scrutiny that would be applied (by literally everybody in the biking world) to this bike given it’s chequered history. I suspect that is one of the reasons why it took so long to get it (and the V4) to production. Brand building with a demonstration of engineering ability.

Shortcutting the re-engineering process and pushing out an unreliable bike, with the same significant faults, would be outright professional suicide - before they’ve even had the chance to showcase their own vision.

On a seperate but related point. What has the clatter on Donington bikes led to, for the majority? We all know about the horror stories - they get plenty of air time. But what of those happily ‘clattering away’ with 30, 40, 50k plus on the clock?
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Agreed FE. But I don’t think we should make too much out of the ‘clatter’ issue just yet. From what I can see we are talking of an isolated instance here - literally one. Noting also that I don’t believe he was a legacy owner, so no reference point other than previous vintage bike ownership apparently. We have accounts here on the forum from legacy owners that note a marked improvement, if I remember rightly.

I thing Norton would be well aware of the scrutiny that would be applied (by literally everybody in the biking world) to this bike given it’s chequered history. I suspect that is one of the reasons why it took so long to get it (and the V4) to production. Brand building with a demonstration of engineering ability.

Shortcutting the re-engineering process and pushing out an unreliable bike, with the same significant faults, would be outright professional suicide - before they’ve even had the chance to showcase their own vision.

On a seperate but related point. What has the clatter on Donington bikes led to, for the majority? We all know about the horror stories - they get plenty of air time. But what of those happily ‘clattering away’ with 30, 40, 50k plus on the clock?
Click to expand...

To the first part of your post: I hope you’re right.

To your separate point about Donington clatter: Basically, I don’t know because I don’t know what caused my particular clatter and there is more than one cause / type of ‘clatter‘ going by posts on here.

But, in summary, there is lots of reference on here to difference sources of clatter in the primary / clutch and there is more than a few reference to mechanical failure in the primary / clutch. So… I for one would not be happy with excessive clatter coming from my primary / clutch.

Mine was definitely a metal on metal ‘knocking‘ noise, so whatever it was, one piece of metal was gonna beat the other into submission eventually !

Regarding your final point, I’d like to know how many 961s there are with 50k miles on them that have NOT had significant mechanical intervention… my feeling is very few… I would genuinely like to be proven wrong about this…
 
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BritTwit said:
Remember the Bushman thread where he tore down his motor and found the synchronization between the crank and the balancer to be off by 1/2 a gear tooth. I believe misplacement of the key for either the driving gear on crank or the balancer shaft gear will be a problem at 4,000 RPM. Wouldn't matter if the balancer were designed correctly or not, if it's not synchronized properly with the crank there will be vibes.
Did Norton actually do QC on parts arriving from suppliers, or cross their fingers, and just bolt them up?
Click to expand...
Could you make an offset key to remedy that half a tooth ? .
 
Fast Eddie said:
To the first part of your post: I hope you’re right.

To your separate point about Donington clatter: Basically, I don’t know because I don’t know what caused my particular clatter and there is more than one cause / type of ‘clatter‘ going by posts on here.

But, in summary, there is lots of reference on here to difference sources of clatter in the primary / clutch and there is more than a few reference to mechanical failure in the primary / clutch. So… I for one would not be happy with excessive clatter coming from my primary / clutch.

Mine was definitely a metal on metal ‘knocking‘ noise, so whatever it was, one piece of metal was gonna beat the other into submission eventually !

Regarding your final point, I’d like to know how many 961s there are with 50k miles on them that have NOT had significant mechanical intervention… my feeling is very few… I would genuinely like to be proven wrong about this…
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From Bikerbore when he rode the 2023 961SP :

First thing I notice when I start it up is there is less engine noise. I’m not saying it’s quiet, there is still plenty of mechanical noise from the engine, but it is a lot quieter than my SF. I do have difficulty seeing the idiot lights on the clocks, the neutral light is not as bright as mine or any of the other lights.

Also 961al said his ride was quieter , better than his original 961 and he is buying a new one .
 
Fast Eddie said:
To the first part of your post: I hope you’re right.

To your separate point about Donington clatter: Basically, I don’t know because I don’t know what caused my particular clatter and there is more than one cause / type of ‘clatter‘ going by posts on here.

But, in summary, there is lots of reference on here to difference sources of clatter in the primary / clutch and there is more than a few reference to mechanical failure in the primary / clutch. So… I for one would not be happy with excessive clatter coming from my primary / clutch.

Mine was definitely a metal on metal ‘knocking‘ noise, so whatever it was, one piece of metal was gonna beat the other into submission eventually !

Regarding your final point, I’d like to know how many 961s there are with 50k miles on them that have NOT had significant mechanical intervention… my feeling is very few… I would genuinely like to be proven wrong about this…
Click to expand...
Hi FE , You should book a test ride of a 2023 Norton 961SP and report back ! It would help others with a decision and would hopefully answer your questions .
 
TonyA said:
Hi FE , You should book a test ride of a 2023 Norton 961SP and report back ! It would help others with a decision and would hopefully answer your questions .
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I was going to Tony.

But I’ve discounted the idea of buying one now.

And my opinions wouldn’t be very valuable to others as it’s a few years since I sold mine, so I’m not really very qualified to provide an accurate comparison.
 
Fast Eddie said:
I was going to Tony.

But I’ve discounted the idea of buying one now.

And my opinions wouldn’t be very valuable to others as it’s a few years since I sold mine, so I’m not really very qualified to provide an accurate comparison.
Click to expand...
You don't need to buy it , just give it a go .
 
Fast Eddie said:
To the first part of your post: I hope you’re right.

To your separate point about Donington clatter: Basically, I don’t know because I don’t know what caused my particular clatter and there is more than one cause / type of ‘clatter‘ going by posts on here.

But, in summary, there is lots of reference on here to difference sources of clatter in the primary / clutch and there is more than a few reference to mechanical failure in the primary / clutch. So… I for one would not be happy with excessive clatter coming from my primary / clutch.

Mine was definitely a metal on metal ‘knocking‘ noise, so whatever it was, one piece of metal was gonna beat the other into submission eventually !

Regarding your final point, I’d like to know how many 961s there are with 50k miles on them that have NOT had significant mechanical intervention… my feeling is very few… I would genuinely like to be proven wrong about this…
Click to expand...
Why does the 961 vibrate so much ?
 
Fast Eddie said:
....

They should not be focusing on making a profit on the 961, the volume is so low that any profit per machine is irrelevant in the scheme of things.

Instead they should be looking at this as a part of the whole brand building effort / investment. As a chance to showcase their core engineering ability and commitment to quality. In doing so they’d be cementing their reputation for future models and sales.

Otherwise they risk actually demonstrating the opposite in that they don’t have an impressive core engineering ability or commitment to quality. This would not be good when trying to sell future new models…
Click to expand...
I agree.
The reason for approaching the "re-design" of the 961 I believe is because the basic design has just too many compromises. To make the overall design changes that would result in a true "fix" would be too expensive. So the NEW 961 appears to be marginally better than the old, but does not resolve some of the preexisting issues. Too bad. I think that without a full re-design for the 961 and elimination of all the issues, the factory does risk their new reputation of having an "impressive core engineering ability." The sooner that they can get their new twins out, and cut the 961 loose, the better.:(

Let Jinlang iron out the bugs in the 961, or not.
But Dr. Bob, and Norton have got to move on to future successes. No more Combats, or 961s, or the like!
 
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