Why Norton should definitely continue to build the 961

Oooh I dunno ‘bout that…

Yes they handle differently. The 961 is more stable in fast corners, and, of course, had far superior suspension, but the Vin is much lighter, and turns much faster (helped by bicycle width tyres).

More accurately machined? In theory yes, Vincent had equipment that was obsolete even then! But, and it’s a big but, they had skilled labour. And some of the stories on here point to hugely inaccurate machining and QC at Norton.

More frugal? Dunno, I never checked on either.

The big benefit the 961 does have which you forgot is the braking.

But, in any meaningful sense, comparisons are futile really.
 
jan nelder said:
no comparison between 961 and Vincent: 961 handles better, is much more accurately machined and is more frugal on gas if ridden at sensible speeds, and a lot cheaper.
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How can you compare a classic 50+ year old bikes performance to that of a 2000+ model year bike?

Let’s compare a Vincent to it’s time and then a 961 to it’s time.

In 2015-2018 the 961 could never out perform another bike in its class. Take the Ducati sport classic or the Thruxton, the BMW R9T, all of these will slaughter a 961.

The Vincent in it’s time and beyond was still a better performance bike for many years.

You’re trying to compare a 1950s motorcycle as a new performance bike in the year 2022.
 
Yep, I think we can all see ‘build to order‘ happening initially. Beyond that, as models are developed over time, you would have to believe that series production could/would commence in line with any demand and as they have stated. I still think people want to buy Norton motorcycles. I certainly believe that had the 961 been engineered correctly many more would have been sold.

As I understand it the Solihull facility is quite advanced and well capable of series production. Waste of a lot of money if they have no real intent to do so. Solihull/TVS talk of up to 8000 units per year eventually and a dealer network - this is all dependent on the business environment of course. There is some suggestion that this is all some sort of smoke screen. Whether they are capable or demand exists only time will tell, but surely we must believe their stated intent?

Is it realistic to believe in a pandemic environment, that Solihull/TVS have had time/opportunity to: sort out the physical/logistical/legal mess that Garner left behind; move locations and set up a state of the art production facility, sourcing all machinery; hire key staff and take a bike (or range of bikes) through testing and regulation to the market?

I don’t know enough about automotive production or business strategy to answer these questions, but still remain hopeful that the marque can be resurrected and that Solihull/TVS aim to meet their stated intent. Anybody want to borrow my rose tinted glasses :rolleyes: !
 
Fast Eddie said:
I’m sure that will be / is being used as an excuse, but it’s a poor one IMO.

Yes that’s what was communicated for months and months. But why? All other automotive and manufacturing companies locked down for a MUCH shorter period of time. Nortons extended COVID lock down was Nortons choice.

And there’s no reason why that time couldn’t have been used to strategise, design, prototype, etc, etc.
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Hey FE, I can understand why they may have wanted to buy more time, but maybe a bit of an assumption that they were sat on their hands during this period and were not strategising and designing etc. Who knows I suppose.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Yep, I think we can all see ‘build to order‘ happening initially. Beyond that, as models are developed over time, you would have to believe that series production could/would commence in line with any demand and as they have stated. I still think people want to buy Norton motorcycles. I certainly believe that had the 961 been engineered correctly many more would have been sold.

As I understand it the Solihull facility is quite advanced and well capable of series production. Waste of a lot of money if they have no real intent to do so. Solihull/TVS talk of up to 8000 units per year eventually and a dealer network - this is all dependent on the business environment of course. There is some suggestion that this is all some sort of smoke screen. Whether they are capable or demand exists only time will tell, but surely we must believe their stated intent?

Is it realistic to believe in a pandemic environment, that Solihull/TVS have had time/opportunity to: sort out the physical/logistical/legal mess that Garner left behind; move locations and set up a state of the art production facility, sourcing all machinery; hire key staff and take a bike (or range of bikes) through testing and regulation to the market?

I don’t know enough about automotive production or business strategy to answer these questions, but still remain hopeful that the marque can be resurrected and that Solihull/TVS aim to meet their stated intent. Anybody want to borrow my rose tinted glasses :rolleyes: !
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8000 units a year won't pay for the utilities of the building.

If you look at where TVS does sell its 2-3 wheel products, it has a good distribution market. But....in places where emission requirements are stringent, they don't and can't sell. Nothing in North America(USA/CANADA) and nothing in UK and European landmass until you get to Ukraine and Turkey. So unless they can get some of their existing models imported into those countries it will be interesting to see how they make money.

Solihull is a good place to make compliant vehicles along with entering the electric market, which they haven't done(except one scooter)

Next month we will be able to see the new corporate report for 2021-2022 so maybe that will have some insight.

I highlight Ducati again because its a good comparable, especially the Superleggera V4 which they will produce 500 units with a US cost of 100k. They sell 60000 bikes worldwide and are every bit state of the art. That's how they keep the lights on and have a solid dealer network.

"In 2021, the United States bought the most Ducati motorcycles with 9,007 units sold, a 32-percent improvement over 2020 sales. Following close behind, Italy comes in second with 8,707 units sold, Germany accounts for 6,107 units, and Chinese riders purchased 4,901 Ducatis. France reports 4,352 units sold, and Great Britain moved 2,941 units"

So they sell 3000 bikes in the UK in a year. And that's a name brand they will compete with. You need some good marketing to get Norton even close to that level of sales. I bet there aren't 3000 961's in the UK

The question then becomes, do you buy the Super Premium Norton from a company that has gone bankrupt a couple of times and is now owned by an Indian conglomerate(which many disapprove of and won't buy just on that alone) and hasn't supported the original motorcycles or dealers it produced or by the Ducati which has dealers and support plus parts. Even the Panigale V4 SP2 is 45K(USD) so you have some competition.

In the days of oversaturation of social media and fake press releases and awards, you would think Norton/TVS would not be keeping too many secrets about what's coming up. No leaks, no "secret" photos on test tracks, no motorcycle magazine articles, no insiders, just us armchair quarterbacks guessing at what is going on. I mean even some Instagram or Facebook post showing the progression of the assembly line or photos of parts being produced. None of that makes sense

People are going to look elsewhere because there isn't an anticipation of much coming up.

I think they got a foothold into UK using the Norton purchase(super smart) and which they didn't have a presence before and while I want to see the Norton brand flourish, I think you'll see a pivot into other markets when they Super Premium doesn't sell well and since you have a production line set up you can produce other products easily. And that's why they invested the money they are.
 
jan nelder said:
no comparison between 961 and Vincent: 961 handles better, is much more accurately machined and is more frugal on gas if ridden at sensible speeds, and a lot cheaper.
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We've done 60,000 miles of touring with our Vincent.
I'm the 6th owner, the bike has outlasted the first 5 owners and will easily outlast me.
Every owner since 1947 has ridden the bike a long way so the total mileage done is several hundred thousand, with a few rebuilds. It was originally sent to the Isle of Malta in 1947, then to a new owner in Scotland in the mid 50s. An English owner had it through the sixties. In 1975 he sold it to a young fellow in Australia who used it as his only transport and to ride across the Continent several times on summer holidays.
He eventually sold it to an older Australian gentleman who rode it for a decade then sold it to me ( in Canada) in 2003.
We've ridden it in three provinces and all of the western states plus shipped it to the UK where I flogged it around the IOM circuit at up to 115 mph. After that we toured England and Scotland with it, about 2500 miles.
We regularly used the bike to attend the North American Rally in California, a 3000 mile round trip.
We could load the bike up tomorrow and head out, I wouldn't give it a second thought, even though it is a 75 year old bike with hundreds of thousands of miles on the clock.
The only things that have broken on the bike during our mileage were some rear spokes and 2 speedo cables.


Maybe a 961 could do this, but I think all considered, it would be a very tough act to follow.

Sometimes it sinks in that people have been having fun riding this old thing for 75 years now. As near as I could tell from research, it's never been laid up for very long, always on the move or ready to go.
This is the bike

 
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let’s just say TVS Norton did have a bike available to buy right now. Today.
And let’s say that bike is the V4 and cost $50k + USD.
Why would I buy it?
Who would buy it?
Where would I buy it?
Where and when would it be available for service and parts?

TVS hasn’t proven anything. They’re a scooter company, not a super bike company. They have no history in racing, where many technology, design and testing comes from.

They may have some engineers and designers with that type of input or background, but how can anyone know or trust that?

They don’t have a history of building dependable, reliable, quality motorcycles because they haven’t built or sold any.

Would you spend that much money on a product that’s not proven?

Why are they not starting with a race bike. R&D in racing is huge and expensive, no doubt. But win on Sunday sells on Monday.
It also advertises their brand.

I really don’t see why they keep everything hush hush.

For me, if TVS Norton had a bike available today, I’m sorry but I think I’d pass until they proven themselves.

We always hear how much they spent so far in money. You’re telling me that they choose not to have any sort of monthly updates, or reports of any kind of progress to build up customer interest?

It’s often said, the best form of advertising is word of mouth. Well, it’s sure quite and tight lipped with them.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Hey FE, I can understand why they may have wanted to buy more time, but maybe a bit of an assumption that they were sat on their hands during this period and were not strategising and designing etc. Who knows I suppose.
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It is an assumption, you’re right. But it’s an assumption based on the facts that we still have no clarity of product portfolio (Norton openly saying it’s still not clear), still not having any 961 spares, still not having any motorcycles, with many stated dates already missed…
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Is it realistic to believe in a pandemic environment, that Solihull/TVS have had time/opportunity to: sort out the physical/logistical/legal mess that Garner left behind; move locations and set up a state of the art production facility, sourcing all machinery; hire key staff and take a bike (or range of bikes) through testing and regulation to the market?
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In a word, yes, it is.

Other companies still managed it.

You shouldn’t mix the two things ie the size of their task and COVID.

Series production was difficult in COVID because of supply chain disruption, as you say (and it still is). But in other regards, it was a perfect time to seize the moment and get stuff done.

Would it have been easy? No.

Was it possible? Definitely.
 
Well boys, you have eventually worn me down! The needle of my optimism-ometer has finally been driven into the red and I’ve just crushed my rose tinted glasses with a lump hammer:eek:!

Hope there are no prospective Norton customers reading this thread!
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Well boys, you have eventually worn me down! The needle of my optimism-ometer has finally been driven into the red and I’ve just crushed my rose tinted glasses with a lump hammer:eek:!

Hope there are no prospective Norton customers reading this thread!
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No need to over react !

Whilst I’m very sceptical of the fact they have not used the last two years to full effect, I’m personally still optimistic
that with the investment they’ve put in, the bikes will come.

I (probably like TVS HQ) just wish they would A) hurry up a bit and B) be more realistic with their promises…
 
Fast Eddie said:
No need to over react !

Whilst I’m very sceptical of the fact they have not used the last two years to full effect, I’m personally still optimistic
that with the investment they’ve put in, the bikes will come.

I (probably like TVS HQ) just wish they would A) hurry up a bit and B) be more realistic with their promises…
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Tongue in cheek FE - my bottle is always half full!
 
mdt-son said:
TVS' largest motorcycle models currently advertised, e.g., the Apache RR 310, are all built to order only. I think that tells a great deal about where TVS is heading with what once was Norton Motorcycle Company. The V4 line-up will most likely be built to orders only.
Series production of any model in the UK? That's wishful thinking.

- Knut
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They also built bikes for Suzuki for a 20 year period.
 
Gojuu said:
Technically, the bottle is always full.

If it wasn't full, the vacuum and surrounding pressure would cause it to collapse.
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Only right to challenge these outlandish scientific theories Gojuu.

Seems that you are correct sir! I’ll let you know how further testing goes!

77F341F7-9D19-4E34-9F83-BD5E633761E3.jpeg
 

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