TVS new owner

EstuaryBoy said:

Yes, I can buy/understand that......
But if I was a gambling man (which I'm not, too hard to come by!) I think sooner or later there will be a water cooled 'Commando' out there, I can't honestly see it not happening...
Unless it's battery powered, of course!

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Yes, one or the other or both is inevitable at some point.
There’s life in the old air cooled dogs yet though!

EstuaryBoy said:

Yes, I can buy/understand that......
But if I was a gambling man (which I'm not, too hard to come by!) I think sooner or later there will be a water cooled 'Commando' out there, I can't honestly see it not happening...
Unless it's battery powered, of course!

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I think a whole scale 961 redesign or whole new liquid cooled Commando would depend on the possible return on investment.
Will liquid cooling sell to potential Command buyers?
How long will manufacturers be allowed to market ICE powered vehicles.
Can TVS recoup their investment in a new engine/vehicle design in the allotted time frame?

Clive said:

With time to contemplate while away on a cruise ship I know we are all getting impatient but I think we really need to be grateful that we have a nice new Norton factory here in a traditional bike manufacturing region instead of rebadged Chinese 125s buzzing into the country with Norton tank logos which could so easily have been the case.

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Hallelujah!!

I don’t see TVS spending time or money on designing a new ICE when they already said they are moving along with a EV deal.

What’s the point of spending all the money and time designing a whole new ice for only 8 years or so?

If TVS do continue with a mildly modified 961 (and I hope they do) I predict they will still also come out with a new liquid cooled replacement / addition later on.

First, they are different products for different market sectors. So could co-exist nicely.

Second, I really don’t buy the fact that ICE engines only have a few years left.

Yes, Europe and the USA are going headlong into EV promises / commitments that are currently utterly impossible to achieve (simply do not have the charging infrastructure or electric generating capacity).

But, as we often arrogantly forget… the world is bigger than Europe and the USA !

The biggest motorcycle market in the world is in India. There are millions of households and even entire villages that still do not have electricity! How on earth can a country like that move over to a total none ICE transport solution. They can’t, it’s impossible. Same goes for the entire African continent, South America, and vast expanses of Asia.

Even China, the biggest producer of EVs in the world, sees them as the answer to big city smog and local pollution. ICE will remain the best transport option for the vast rural areas of the country.

Even if our current politicians get their way in the US and EU and ban all ICE, it will STILL remain the case that the majority of vehicles sold globally will be ICE.

Toyota gets this, that’s why they have said they are not committing to a zero ICE future, because large parts of their global market aren’t ready for EV and won’t be for a long time to come, yet they’ll still need transport.

The likes of Mercedes et al who have committed to a zero ICE future have achieved lots of ‘likes’ for that now… but they’re are either gonna have to back track… or write off vast markets in the future.

So… if Norton do come out with a decent new liquid cooled twin, they could first sell it to the rich west as a super premium blah, blah, and then later on, scale it back a bit and use it as a mass produced mid sized engine for Asia, Africa, etc under either the Norton or TVS name.

Fast Eddie said:

Yes, one or the other or both is inevitable at some point.
There’s life in the old air cooled dogs yet though!

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After the appearance of the Langen 2 stroke I don't think anything would surprise me any more.......

we have the “paperless” office /applestore already, so are we ready for a bikeless factory, with laser printed bikes appearing in mid air....?

jan nelder said:

we have the “paperless” office /applestore already, so are we ready for a bikeless factory, with laser printed bikes appearing in mid air....?

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For sale in the meta verse ?!

jan nelder said:

we have the “paperless” office /applestore already, so are we ready for a bikeless factory, with laser printed bikes appearing in mid air....?

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Yeah, the paperless office, that sure panned out, didn't it?
But the Zero Carbon push has a huge green-nazi political movement behind it, world wide.
Political activists embedded in government agencies, and corporate boards.
This ideology is pushed in schools and universities as well.

I think it will come to a head when it's finally apparent that the date can't be meet.
Then a new zero carbon date will be set off into the future another 20 years or so.
But by then there will have been countless billions, or trillions wasted trying to achieve the dream.

I just read an article about solar cells that have reached the end of their service life, and how they are handled.
In the US, "recycling" of these solar cells involves sending them to facilities that can remove some of the essential metals, then the overwhelming bulk of the solar cells is disposed of in special dumps designated by the EPA for the remaining hazardous materials they contain.
Wonderfully environmental, so much better than dealing with those dirty ICE machines.

We were also told that old lithium car batteries would also have recycling centers where key materials would be removed and processed for reuse. Imagine, 100, or 200 million vehicles, and the batteries that will be required for then. Millions of batteries requiring processing/recycling per year. Where are these processing centers??????

I think carbon powered vehicles will be around for some time to come.

'..I think carbon powered vehicles will be around for some time to come....'

Hopefully, but the downside is we'll be squeezed ever tighter financially to fund the failing follies now and to come :-(

BritTwit said:

Yeah, the paperless office, that sure panned out, didn't it?
But the Zero Carbon push has a huge green-nazi political movement behind it, world wide.
Political activists embedded in government agencies, and corporate boards.
This ideology is pushed in schools and universities as well.

I think it will come to a head when it's finally apparent that the date can't be meet.
Then a new zero carbon date will be set off into the future another 20 years or so.
But by then there will have been countless billions, or trillions wasted trying to achieve the dream.

I just read an article about solar cells that have reached the end of their service life, and how they are handled.
In the US, "recycling" of these solar cells involves sending them to facilities that can remove some of the essential metals, then the overwhelming bulk of the solar cells is disposed of in special dumps designated by the EPA for the remaining hazardous materials they contain.
Wonderfully environmental, so much better than dealing with those dirty ICE machines.

We were also told that old lithium car batteries would also have recycling centers where key materials would be removed and processed for reuse. Imagine, 100, or 200 million vehicles, and the batteries that will be required for then. Millions of batteries requiring processing/recycling per year. Where are these processing centers??????

I think carbon powered vehicles will be around for some time to come.

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How is a ice cleaner than a ev? It’s not. No matter how you look at it’s.
From oil production to tail pipe emissions, ev is still a environmentally cleaner option.

A cars EV battery can be recycled and it last a minimum of 10 years and as much as 20+ years. In the USA hardly anyone keeps a car beyond a lease agreement.

I don’t see why people are so scared and threatened by EV.

I don't think 'scared' or 'threatened' is the problem, to my mind they just seem hopelessly impractical (especially for business use) at the current stage of technical development....

I have a part time job, driving a 'temperature controlled' (refrigerated!) van, sometimes covering 400 miles in a day... Current (no pun intended) technology would take far longer to achieve that, with the attendant knock on of costs etc... (Time=Money in most business scenarios)

It's not cleaner than an EV, just has greater utility in current society.
Gas stations everywhere, most cars that get 30mpg can range at least 400 miles on a tank of gas.
Fill ups take 5-10 minutes.

I don't think anyone is scared of EV's, just the headlong rush to displace ICE vehicles with them, when they really are not yet able to match the overall utility of ICE vehicles.
Sure they should continue to develop them, just allow current ICE vehicles to also develop alongside with out regulations attempting to eliminate them.

Then, when EV's are finally, obviously superior to ICE vehicles, everyone will adopt them.
The government won't have to force it.

Folks loved their horses a whole lot, but when gas powered autos became available, folks swapped their hay burners for gas guzzlers.

Also, is the beloved 'carbon footprint' for manufacturing these vehicles currently any less for ICE?
Were the raw materials delivered in 'clean' vehicles, do all the workers turn up on bicycles? Does the factory (and all it's suppliers) run on renewable energy sources...
I don't knock the idea of EV per se, but that eerie sounding BMW with the smug owner is only a small part of the picture, IMHO
'Lip service' is the phrase I would use at the moment...

EstuaryBoy said:

I don't think 'scared' or 'threatened' is the problem, to my mind they just seem hopelessly impractical (especially for business use) at the current stage of technical development....

I have a part time job, driving a 'temperature controlled' (refrigerated!) van, sometimes covering 400 miles in a day... Current (no pun intended) technology would take far longer to achieve that, with the attendant knock on of costs etc... (Time=Money in most business scenarios)

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But you don’t drive / ride 400 miles a day in your personal vehicle. soooo? What is the fear?

BritTwit said:

It's not cleaner than an EV, just has greater utility in current society.
Gas stations everywhere, most cars that get 30mpg can range at least 400 miles on a tank of gas.
Fill ups take 5-10 minutes.

I don't think anyone is scared of EV's, just the headlong rush to displace ICE vehicles with them, when they really are not yet able to match the overall utility of ICE vehicles.
Sure they should continue to develop them, just allow current ICE vehicles to also develop alongside with out regulations attempting to eliminate them.

Then, when EV's are finally, obviously superior to ICE vehicles, everyone will adopt them.
The government won't have to force it.

Folks loved their horses a whole lot, but when gas powered autos became available, folks swapped their hay burners for gas guzzlers.

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Ice vehicles had over 100 years to develop. Some get less mpg today than the cars of the 1900s.
If EV would of continued to develop since the 1900 battery technology and charge stations would be further too.

Look how far EV has come in less then 20 years.

EstuaryBoy said:

Also, is the beloved 'carbon footprint' for manufacturing these vehicles currently any less for ICE?
Were the raw materials delivered in 'clean' vehicles, do all the workers turn up on bicycles? Does the factory (and all it's suppliers) run on renewable energy sources...
I don't knock the idea of EV per se, but that eerie sounding BMW with the smug owner is only a small part of the picture, IMHO
'Lip service' is the phrase I would use at the moment...

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How much pollution does a ev produce compared to a ice. That’s the point.
Even if the manufacturing of the ev is the same or equal as making a ice, the ev is still a cleaner option.

Plus the ev has less parts and less maintenance and last longer.

Voodooo said:

Ice vehicles had over 100 years to develop. Some get less mpg today than the cars of the 1900s.
If EV would of continued to develop since the 1900 battery technology and charge stations would be further too.

Look how far EV has come in less then 20 years.

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EV's have made strides in the last 20 years, but they have a way to go.
All I'm saying is allow both types to exist. Most EV's are affordable for many folks.
When EV's provide better utility, and range than ICE vehicles, people will switch, willingly.

My belief is that hydrogen fuel cell EV's are the real solution, not battery power.
Look at the Toyota Mirai.
Gets 400+ miles on a fuel load, and can be refueled in 5-10 minutes like an ICE vehicle.
Right now the Mirai is too expensive, and there are precious few hydrogen refueling stations around.
But this is the tech that will bring EV's into their own, and actually challenge ICE vehicles.

The tech to manufacture green or blue hydrogen on site at stations exists.
No lithium, cobalt mining required, not batteries to dispose of.

Voodooo said:

But you don’t drive / ride 400 miles a day in your personal vehicle. soooo? What is the fear?

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'Fear?'
Sorry, that's a dumb word.. Just trying to highlight that current EV technology is next to useless in certain scenarios. The world doesn't turn on just 'personal vehicles', no??
Also, the blind faith that technology 'will improve' makes me wonder how Cancer has lasted so long....

Yes, fear is the wrong word. I’m not frightened of EVs or even anti EV at all

Annoyed is more like it. I’m anti things being pushed before they are ready… and made ‘law’ ! Governments seem to think ‘pass a bill and it will happen’. Sadly there‘s usually more effort involved!

I‘m annoyed that the governments are forcing things through legal action rather than helping and allowing EV to simply become the better choice.

When it IS the better choice, ICE will die naturally, no need to force the issue.

The fact that they are forcing the issue is actually proof that EVs aren’t yet the better choice.

Voodoo, EVs are of course superior at reducing local pollution, ie the air around them.

But the total carbon footprint is FAR less clear. Longevity and recyclability is FAR less clear. And these questions will get a LOT bigger as the volumes increase. Currently EVs are little more than a novelty for the industry and market in terms of volume. When they go mainstream is a different matter altogether. Current lithium mining, processing and shipping will have to increase exponentially for example.

We need FAR better and plentiful charging infrastructure and a massive increase in electric generating capacity before we start ‘forcing‘ the buying public into EVs.

And regarding the development of ICEs since 1900, the only engines that use more fuel than they did then are ones doing it on purpose, ie extreme performance engines (even then I doubt the claim). ‘Normal’ engines are cleaner and more efficient than ever before. Actually by a massive margin.

Personally, I also believe that hydrogen is a far better answer.

But reverting to the fear topic, actually there is a fear, there is a fear that folk like us will all be outlawed off the roads. Left with worthless junk that we’ve all put so much into. Perhaps even unable to travel freely at all when petrol is banned and electricity is rationed…