Torque: to lube or not lube

For cylinder head bolts I clean the threads with a brass wire wheel. If the bolts go easily in and out of the holes then I don't run a tap down them. Then lightly oil the bolts and run them in and out of their respective holes making sure of smooth action. Then I screw in the bolts (and the three nuts) and torque it down in three or four rounds using the torque specified in the manual. If anything I might under tighten the three nuts being very cautious. It's worked very well.
As for rod nuts I use new ones with (horrors) a dab of red loctite. Also never a problem. Always street machines, no race motors.
































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So, so far, we haven’t heard from anyone who uses factored reduced torque settings specifically to allow / compensate for lubrication.

Seems that in general, the consensus is, lube and stock settings and you’ll be fine.

Fast Eddie said:

So, so far, we haven’t heard from anyone who uses factored reduced torque settings specifically to allow / compensate for lubrication.

Seems that in general, the consensus is, lube and stock settings and you’ll be fine.

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I thought that, that was whwha

Ian James said:

I thought that, that was whwha

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Sorry. I thought that, that was what I was trying to get at

seattle##gs said:

For cylinder head bolts I clean the threads with a brass wire wheel. If the bolts go easily in and out of the holes then I don't run a tap down them. Then lightly oil the bolts and run them in and out of their respective holes making sure of smooth action. Then I screw in the bolts (and the three nuts) and torque it down in three or four rounds using the torque specified in the manual. If anything I might under tighten the three nuts being very cautious. It's worked very well.
As for rod nuts I use new ones with (horrors) a dab of red loctite. Also never a problem. Always street machines, no race motors.
































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Zzzzzzzzz......
You ok over there?

Onder said:

Read through the 'Torque: lube or no lube' thread. By the end it seemed to me nobody has The Answer.
It is time for me to torque down a head and I want to know "If I use thread lube, do I reduce torque setting
and if so by how much?"
Using ARP paste in my case so I asked ARP. Got back the cryptic answer which sort of was yes but use what
the vendor of the hardware recommends. So basically they kicked the can down the road and here I am
with torque wrench at the ready and thumb up me arse.
SO WOT IS THE CORRECT SETTING?

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Torquing (head) bolts is not a goal in itself.
The goal is to achieve an oil and gas-tight seal between the cyl.head and the barrel.
At bike meetings ( which I try to avoid..) more than half of the Nortons that covered some distance show leaking head gaskets.
No doubt the owners did an effort to 'correctly' torque up the bolts and maybe used some kind of miracle goop,
but they still leak.
There is a whole list of things one can/should do to make it 100% oil tight over longer distances ( 30 -40 000 km or more)
Torquing up, lubed or not, is only the last step.

ludwig said:

Torquing (head) bolts is not a goal in itself.
The goal is to achieve an oil and gas-tight seal between the cyl.head and the barrel.
At bike meetings ( which I try to avoid..) more than half of the Nortons that covered some distance show leaking head gaskets.
No doubt the owners did an effort to 'correctly' torque up the bolts and maybe used some kind of miracle goop,
but they still leak.
There is a whole list of things one can/should do to make it 100% oil tight over longer distances ( 30 -50 000 km)
Torquing up, lubed or not, is only the last step.

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True story

For those not following: https://www.accessnorton.com/Norton...primary-drive-case-backfire.36259/post-613202

A case where torqued did not clamp!

marshg246 said:

For those not following: https://www.accessnorton.com/Norton...primary-drive-case-backfire.36259/post-613202

A case where torqued did not clamp!

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Because a rookie shade tree, addled with monkey-see-monkey-do videos failed to: A) visually inspect B) test run the threads C) clean the residual thread locker from the nut.
D) visually/tactile confirm the sprocket went onto the taper correctly/completely.
Happens every day.
"Cleanup in Aisle 5 please"

NOT shadetree bashing, but rather, highlighting the misconception that "anyone can fix anything by watching a video"
There is a lot ($$$$) at risk.



At least it wasn't pilot who trained on FlightSim2000.

concours said:

Because a rookie shade tree, addled with monkey-see-monkey-do videos failed to: A) visually inspect B) test run the threads C) clean the residual thread locker from the nut.
D) visually/tactile confirm the sprocket went onto the taper correctly/completely.
Happens every day.
"Cleanup in Aisle 5 please"

NOT shadetree bashing, but rather, highlighting the misconception that "anyone can fix anything by watching a video"
There is a lot ($$$$) at risk.
View attachment 103696View attachment 103697View attachment 103698


At least it wasn't pilot who trained on FlightSim2000.

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And I’ll add to your rant, this is the kind of failure that happens when people think “I’ve torqued it correctly therefore it’s right” vs looking, and more importantly, feeling what you’re actually doing. And why sometimes a normal wrench in a sympathetic hand is better than going ‘clack-clack’ with a torque wrench.

worntorn said:

Just to add to the confusion we have Norton experts Mick Hemmings and Norman White using full torque settings as per the big White book and lots of lube on the threads.
(snip)
Glen

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What Mick and Norman have published is very much in line with John Hudson's thoughts. John had strong feelings on the security of threaded fasteners and he would express them freely (as would NOT shock anyone who knew John Hudson). John said that the strength and usefulness of threaded fasteners was most directly related to the quality and precision of the thread forming process. To be a quality fastener, it had to have a correctly sized and formed thread profile and all parts must be parallel/perpendicular to the axis of the thread and both threaded parts should be correctly sized with respect to each other. Once this has been achieved, "you are working with a metal mechanical device which requires lubrication to perform properly". John's thesis was that lube would provide a stable and consistent mating between threads as they were placed under load during the tightening process. I don't know that John ever used anything other than engine oil for this purpose but he always followed it to the letter in his work.
John also said that he felt that metal (generally cut metal and more especially not-so-precisely cut metal) had a grain that acted like fine burrs. Assembling threads without lubrication would allow this grain to bend backwards like a spring when the fastener was tightened -- in service, this grain would then to "spring back" and tend to loosen the thread a small amount -- but an amount that could result in the beginning of a thread losing its tension.
My personal opinion is that this is probably not a practical effect that's likely to be significant enough to show up in real life. I have also never been able to force myself to follow John's recommendation to "crack" a fastener back a tiny amount after full tightening upon assembly to reduce the effect of this grain loading, but I'd note that John had a reputation among many of the top-level racing tuners and race builders in the 50s-60s-70s of producing top level, reliable builds and he did a lot of work -- both publicly and behind the scenes -- for a number of these tuners when the wanted the very best for a critical build. His reputation at Bracebridge St., Plumstead Rd, and Norton Villiers Europe (where he was service manager) was also very highly regarded.
John also was not a big fan of thread-locking materials.

Bolts and nuts made 50 years ago are not the same as those made today, and many of us use nylock nuts which changes things further. Yes, there were metal locking nuts back then but mostly simple cut nuts were used, maybe with lock washers.

It's funny to look through Triumph Workshop manuals and see "Triumph Locktite" recommended many places and the Norton experts of the day have different ideas (best I can tell).

It's also interesting that Triumph specified torque wrench settings as dry.

If the bolts are connecting rod bolts, it’s better to use a stretch gauge