The P11 thread

[dave M]

Thank you very much Bill, I did manage to register and visit the site and also see the spacer and stud information, which is hopefully useful for G 15 s also.

 

[BillT]

Thank you very much Bill, I did manage to register and visit the site and also see the spacer and stud information, which is hopefully useful for G 15 s also.

I'm not sure - they are different frames, but since both were originally designed for a Matchless motor (though the G15/45 was a twin), maybe there was a standard shift to go to a Norton engine.

One way to check would be to see if they used the same part numbers for the various shims. The parts manual for these bikes doesn't have any pictures.

If all else fails, give Mike at Walridge a call.

 

[BillT]

Finally got my other tank back from the striping guy. He didn't get get the stripe quite right, but I'll live with it.

Next time, I'll do the stripe myself. I think I did OK with the paint. Still waiting on a couple little decals for the oil tank (oil level and recommended brands)
(Sorry about the blurry picture. It was fairly overcast this morning, slowing the exposure to about 1/30 sec)

The stripe should go to about an inch from the front of the tank, so the 'Norton' decal is centered on the bump. The way it is, however, the decal is more easily seen from the side.

 

[Matt Spencer]

We'll have none of this . typical modern music so no sound effects . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CugNxr9aXC8

 

[BillT]

We'll have none of this . typical modern music so no sound effects . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CugNxr9aXC8

That's a shame

 

[grandpaul]

Dang, that bike looks nice. I sure like those pipes...

 

[BillT]

Dang, that bike looks nice. I sure like those pipes...

Pipes are from Mike at Walridge. The mufflers are Togas from Tony at Domiracer. He's got some NOS Norton, but they're $500/pair. Mike has other British-made mufflers, but the baffles don't come out like the Norton and Toga do. The bike is LOUD when running without the baffles, but has a nice bark with them in. I actually widened 1/2 the slots in the baffles - stock was too restrictive.

Tony also has great prices on AMC primary gaskets - about $4 apiece

 

[Matt Spencer]

Origans , or Roots , for those that watch T.V. :?

I think 64's when they invented the Proton Energy Pill , too . :?

Dunno if the pics are still there ?

Down & Dirty .

 

[grandpaul]

Windy, you were right about the ignition system, it's NOT a mag on my basket case. Check out the new thread...

(the tach drive is good and it's going on that N15 so I can finally finish it)

 

[BillT]

It was such a nice morning, I blew off a morning job and rode over to a local park. It has a couple of hills created from digging one of the major irrigation canals down here, the C-14. We call it the 3 hill park. Highest point in South Florida that isn't made of garbage.

Here a couple of pics of the Ranger...

8)

 

[grandpaul]

Sure makes me want to do a total restoration on my P11...

By the way, it looks like I'm missing the two front engine mounts. I'm going to try the leftovers from the N15 and see if they'll fit. I had simply bolted the engine up using spacers I had on hand, thinking they were just missing...

...also turns out I'm missing the rear brake linking rod. Dang.

 

[BillT]

The brake rod is just 1/4" rod with 26TPI on each end - about 1/2" on the front and 3-1/2" on the back. My original was so bent up it wasn't worth straightening, so I made a new one. Same with the brake pedal - after spending hours trying to straighten the original, I just cut the long section off and replaced it with new steel tube, re-using the little foot pad. The pillion foot pegs are identical to Commando, except a 1-1/2" extension of solid rod welded on to the end of the rolled steel. This kicks the pillion rubbers out about 1-1/2", which helps keep the passengers toes off the heels of the rider, and kicks the legs out a bit if high pipes are fitted. The rider pegs are bare, with a little tab on the end to hold the boot on the peg - they are surprisingly comfortable.

 

[JW 72Combat]

I just picked up a P11 serial #128742 which I believe is a 1968 P11A Ranger. The bike has been chopped but other than some bondo molded around the neck I think the frame is unmolested. Extended front end but it looks like the rake is stock. The head is off and appears to be in very good shape. Engine turns over and gearbox shifts. I have not taken a complete inventory of the parts in the milk crates. The major missing parts appear to be the fenders, fuel tank, seat and exhaust pipes and mufflers. I had no intention to get involved in another project as have a couple in progress but I just could not pass up the opportunity. Any thoughts on where I can track down the missing parts would be appreciated.

 

[bwolfie]

A quick Ebay search brings up many of your missing items.

http://motors.desc.shop.ebay.com/eBay-M ... norton+p11

 

[BillT]

128742 would be a Ranger 750, just like mine. They were all built in about a 1 month period in Sept-Oct 1968 and all had serials from 128646 to 129145.

Fenders, fender stays, seat, handlebar with the correct brace, and pipes can all be gotten from Mike at Walridge. The correct mufflers, with removable cones and baffles are available from Tony at Domiracer, along with the decals and various other bits. If you need fork parts, steering damper or other Matchless items, the best source is Steve Surbey at AMC Classic Spares in England.

 

[Hobot]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Eugene Brolund
Subject: Re: [norton-p11] Re: N15/P11 ForkTubes
To: norton-p11@yahoogroups.com


The only P11's that uses the G80CS internal damping arrangement was
the single seat P11 series. The springs were the HD sidecar ones or
016782, and they were 12.75 inches long with a wire gauge of 0.212
inches, or 5.384mm. The later P11A series used 022369 of 11.90 length,
and a wire gauge of 0.212 inches. These are the standard Teledraulic
road springs. All the P11A, P11A Ranger and the P11A Ranger 750 used
the standard P11 AMC Teledraulic forks.

The single seat P11's forks discarded the buffer spring 022079, free
length 2 25/32 inches, wire gauge 0.192 inch, and also discarded a
spring collar 022021, that is 1 9/16 x 1 3/8. The later P11A series
used the for mentioned parts with the road spring 022369 and the fork
damper tubes 022890. The P11 single seat series used 028048 fork
damper tube with the spring 016782. The dampers differed where the
holes were drilled in the dampers as well as they also differed in
their hole sizes and locations in the damper tubes.

The N15CS, G15CS type Roadholder fork stanchions were 25 inches long,
with one inch longer damper. The damper rods are the same size as the
standard Atlas, 650ss Roadholders. The only P11 series that had the
fins machined off the hubs, were from engine and frame numbers 121007
to 126123. The P11A Ranger 750's from 128646 to 129145 all had their
fins left on. The rear hub on the P11A Ranger 750 is a G12CS one as
these had the bigger and stronger spoke sizes, so that the P11's could
be used off road, with out their wheels collapsing.

Skip Brolund

________________________________
From: Orin

The P11 uses Matchless forks (NOT NORTON) and are the same as the G80
forks . The front and rear hub are also Matchless but have a machined
off area rather than the rib that is found on other Matchless hubs .
The N15 fork tubes are Roadholder like on the atlas but are about 2"
longer on the tube and on the dampning rod.

 

[BillT]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Eugene Brolund
Subject: Re: [norton-p11] Re: N15/P11 ForkTubes
To: norton-p11@yahoogroups.com


The only P11's that uses the G80CS internal damping arrangement was
the single seat P11 series...

I largely agree with the info contained in this forwarded message, and have posted it earlier in this thread. There were a handful of P11s fitted with road-going fork damping, and those particular serial numbers are posted back on page 1. All P11As and Rangers came with road-going forks from the factory, but some may have been retrofitted with off-road internals later. Additionally, some racers changed to Norton forks, Cerianis or something else. If the bike ever saw off-road duty or competition, any number of things could have been changed in the interest of going faster.

P11s are essentially Matchless G85s with an Atlas motor shoehorned into the frame. The only changes to the G85 chassis were to accommodate the 750 distributor twin instead of the 500 magneto single (new oil tank and battery tray, coil mounts, re-positioned engine lug on frame).

The G15/N15/33 machines contained many more Norton parts - wheels, hubs, brakes and forks were all Norton, except for the initial run of hybrids where Teledraulics were used instead of Roadholders (maybe first six months or so)

 

[skipsoldbikes]

A small point concerning an incorrect P11 fact that has been stated. The so called Ranger 750 advert. Well there was a model called the P11A Ranger, then after that the P11A Ranger 750.
There are four models in the P11 series.
P11
P11A
P11A Ranger
P11A Ranger 750

Please bear this in mind when viewing P11 info, as it can get confusing & easy to mistype, or misinterpret. It can get complicated

 

[BillT]

A small point concerning an incorrect P11 fact that has been stated. The so called Ranger 750 advert. Well there was a model called the P11A Ranger, then after that the P11A Ranger 750.
There are four models in the P11 series.
P11
P11A
P11A Ranger
P11A Ranger 750

Please bear this in mind when viewing P11 info, as it can get confusing & easy to mistype, or misinterpret. It can get complicated

As I stated earlier in this thread, the changes came so swiftly with the P11 that many of the ads were obsolete by the time they went to print. The only ad I've seen that is correct is the brochure for the Ranger 750. This brochure has pictures of a Ranger, one of the bikes from 128646 to 129145.

One of the '68 model year Norton ads even has a picture of the Matchless version of the P11A.

According to the factory record, Ranger 750s were officially called 'P11A Ranger 750'. These were the only run of bikes to come from the factory with unskimmed hubs, front brake switch, 'Norton' decals on the tank, long narrow seat and the gold double 'D' stripe.

The last run of P11As got 'Ranger' decals on the oil tank and battery cover. I've been told by a couple of guys who worked at Norton dealers that decals were put on at the dealership to any unsold P11As. The easiest way to tell a Ranger from a P11A is to look at the hubs.

Aside from the change in fork internals between the P11 and the P11A, with the exception of the few machines mentioned earlier in this thread, the entire P11 series are mechanically identical. The only changes between the various versions are mostly cosmetic, or running changes to address issues - such as the ever-changing oil tank, or changing from alloy fenders to chromed steel due to fatigue cracking. I've seen P11As done up as P11s with solo seats and high pipes. I even saw a Ranger motor in a Trackmaster chassis with a modified primary (alternator cut off and rear notched to access swingarm pivot). Then there's the Ranger Dennis Hopper rode in the beginning of 'Easy Rider' with Commando 'S'-style pipes.

 

[skipsoldbikes]

Great pics Bill, I esp. like the Hap Jones decal, as I need to buy one (now available) for my Nomad rear fender. I also liked the still from easy rider, I didnt realise there was a norton in there, good excuse to watch the movie again this weekend! I guess I should watch Hogslayer again as well !!!!!!!!!!

Back to P11's.............................
The P11 series had allot of mechanical changes. Three Lucas A/R units for a start, a change to the CB's from 4CA to 6CA. Changes to the valves, as they were longer after 125871, as well as changes to the pushrod lengths. This was done to change the rocker geometry for more engine power, and it gained about 1 to 2 bhp more. The cylinder head bolts changed from 5/16 to a 3/8 inch bolt, as this helped to stop the cylinder head gaskets blowing. There was also a change to the gearbox, as both the forth gears were changed after 128646. There was a change to the gear teeth, and the hardening as they were very prone to wear. I have a very good friend in England who has the actual factory build book, and this backs all this all up, he has the correct part numbers. The P11A Ranger 750's also used the cylinder head casting from the Commando series, as the sides have an unmachined part where the Commando's where drilled for the rocker arm oil feeds. Some P11A Ranger 750's also were dispatched with the fins machined off their hubs. There were two brochures produced for the P11A Ranger 750's, Home Home on the Ranger, and Colour me Fun. There was also a brochures produced for the P11A, and the P11A Ranger as I have seen both of them.

As for a Matchless version of the P11A, well there is a factory picture of a P11A with the later smaller Matchless plastic badges. There was also changes in the works to the colour scheme. The factory were trying different paint options. Some in red and white, with a grey and white dual seat. some in orange, and some in blue and white. I found the guy who took the photographs at Plumstead. Also some P11A Ranger 750's were dispatched with silver painted barrels. My friend in the UK's own P11A Ranger 750 has the silver painted barrels, and he was told by the dealer that this was how the bike came out of the crate from new with them fitted. The silver barrel is also shown in the factory build book that he has. This is the book that was used to print the parts list from. The P11 series parts list that have been published, go from 121007 to 126123, as there was never any parts book published for the P11A Ranger 750. There was an unpublished list that he obtained from the factory years ago. The only available parts list for the P11A Ranger 750 is the factory build book that he owns, and he also owns the factory build book for the Matchless G50CSR, that was only produced in very small numbers.

As for "well they had all these parts such as, engines, frames, gearbox's etc over, no one has ever been able to show me the evidence for such a theory or as a spoken word. I have heard this said about the later Norton Mercury. So the factory had hanging around in their warehouse, frames, engines, gearbox's petrol tanks, as well as all the other parts to make over 900 Mercury's. I think not.