Shindengen (open type SCR) Regulator Installation MK II

cliffa said:
Which one are you looking for Mike, the SH775 ?
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Cliff, The one Grant Tiller recommended for me running Estart,LI battery,3-phase,along with my electric vest is SH775AA. I am just trying to avoid any electrical problems as possible. I am also using 7V gloves which are marginal in my opinion.
Appreciate the help
Mike
 
YING said:
Nigel,
I sent a message to Shindengen and they replied that they don’t sell these regulators to anyone other than OEM manufacturers.Do you know where I should look for as far as a snowmobile or ATV brand that I could check. Thanks,
Mike
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cliffa said:
Which one are you looking for Mike, the SH775 ?
Click to expand...
I believe the SH775 is used on Polaris UTVs. There are ways to determine whether or not you are getting the genuine article.
 
worntorn said:
The Podtronics are also entirely made in China, however they are made to Bob Kizer's specifications. Bob passed away some years ago. John Healey, of Coventry Spares, owns the company now.
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They have changed since owned by Coventry Spares. The ones before worked fine with Tri-Spark and were even sold by Tri-Spark branded as Tri-Spark. The ones after do not work with Tri-Spark - they produce a lot of noise that cause missing above 3000 RPM. When that started, a filter on the power line from the Podtronics "fixed" the problem. Podtronics regulators manufactured later still produced even more noise than the filter could not remove.

So, in a nutshell - do not use Podtronics with Tri-Spark.

Also, I was told that Bob Kizer assembled them himself - did not outsource - I have no personal knowledge if that is true.
 
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YING said:
Nigel,
I sent a message to Shindengen and they replied that they don’t sell these regulators to anyone other than OEM manufacturers.Do you know where I should look for as far as a snowmobile or ATV brand that I could check. Thanks,
Mike
Click to expand...
If you are referring to these guys below, all, can say is I bought mine from them, but it was a while ago. If I was wiring a bike now I reckon I’d give the Tri Spark mofset offering a go.

 
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I don't understand the desire. IMHO the reasons to switch from the original bridge/Zener are:
  1. Reduce the leakage current when the bike is off.
  2. Simplify the wiring.
  3. Change the possible component failure from two to one.

All the solid-state rectifier/regulators do 3, 2 is covered by all designed for vintage British bikes, and the clear winner on 1 is the Tri-Spark MOSFET of all I've tested or seen test results.

Then there's the open or shorted (misnomers) "issue".
  • People seem to want the most powerful stator available - mistake.
    • The max current the standard wiring can sustain is 7 or 8 amps (depending on where you look).
    • The max DC draw of original bikes with turn signals is around 7 amps (when not pushing the horn button). e-start does not increase this as it has it's own wiring and is many orders of magnitude higher than the charging system can provide.
    • Lots are changing to LED lighting which is only really valuable for longer life and if the LED headlight is brighter than the original - the original lighting and original charging system were designed to work together so I see no other valid reasons to change. Changing to LED lighting and a 16A single-phase or a 14.5A three-phase is just silly.
  • A three-phase is not "more powerful" than a single phase. Available today from Lucas:
    • 47205, RM21, Single Phase, 10A AC
    • 47239, RM23, Single Phase, 16A AC
    • 47244, RM24 (not a typo), 3 Phase, 14.5A AC
    • 47252, RM24 (not a typo), 3 Phase, 10.5A AC
  • However, a three-phase will improve charging at low RPMs.
  • The stator is not shorted in any regulator - the stator connects to the input of the internal bridge in the "shorted" units and output from the internal bridge goes to ground in some cases almost directly and in others via other devices. This means that the original bridge and Zener are the "shorted" type.
    • Any of the regulators that get hot and require airflow to keep them from destroying themselves are truly the "shorted" type. For instance, PODtronics.
    • The Tri-Spark MOSFET does not require airflow, and never gets more than warm. It is considered a "shorted" type but is actually in between
    • The "open" types are not actually open, they still have a bridge it's just that the output of the bridge is a high resistance rather than low when not charging.
Yes, I sell Tri-Spark and yes, I consider the regulator overpriced, but at least it's produced by a vintage British motorcycle enthusiast who stands behind his products. I used to use and sell PODtronics and I liked them very much until their quality went down and I started getting returns to eat.
 
marshg246 said:
They have changed since owned by Coventry Spares. The ones before worked fine with Tri-Spark and were even sold by Tri-Spark branded as Tri-Spark. The ones after do not work with Tri-Spark - they produce a lot of noise that cause missing above 3000 RPM. When that started, a filter on the power line from the Podtronics "fixed" the problem. Podtronics regulators manufactured later still produced even more noise than the filter could not remove.

So, in a nutshell - do not use Podtronics with Tri-Spark.

Also, I was told that Bob Kizer assembled them himself - did not outsource - I have no personal knowledge if that is true.
Click to expand...
Bob built the first ones then set up manufacturing in China with everything done to his design and specifications.
He was the quality control department.

I tested for stator heat build up due to nasty crude regulation, something that Podtronics has been labelled with in the past.

There was no difference in stator heat with two identical speed and distance runs. Run 1 was with battery purposely discharged as low as possible, just leaving adequate voltage for kick starting, then 65 watt headlight and heated vest on during the run. I maintained speed such that voltage never got high enough to put power to ground thru the reg.
At home I measured the heat rise in the stator. Ive forgotten the temp but it was just warm, not hot.
There was zero heat rise in the regulator as it wasn't doing any regulation.
Run number 2 was done after leaving the battery on the battery charger for 22 hours then running the same course with lights off and no heated vest used.
This made the regulator work hard.
The heat rise in the stator was identical to run number one.
There was heat rise in the regulator but it wasn't huge, just normal operation heat.
My conclusion is that the Podtronics shorting type regulators do not harm the charging system at all.

I would have guessed that as my oldest Pod is 23 years and that charging sytem still works as new.
I'm sorry to hear that the quality of these regs has gone down.
I purchased one a couple of years ago when building the 920. It works fine at present.
It will be interesting to see if it gives trouble.

Glen
 
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I used the SH775 for a few years. I bought it used for $35 from a Polaris dealer back when the series regulator craze started. Worked fine but I didn't like the ~2mA leakage current. My bike does not get ridden much anymore and the constant draw-down became annoying. I went back to my old 3 phase Podtronics but have a Tri-Spark reg from Greg ready to put on this winter. (I like to fool around with these things.) There is plenty of controversy and misinformation out there on this topic. All the different methods get the job done, including the original Lucas set-up.
Russ
 
worntorn said:
Bob built the first ones then set up manufacturing in China with everything done to his design and specifications.
He was the quality control department.

I tested for stator heat build up due to nasty crude regulation, something that Podtronics has been labelled with in the past.

There was no difference in stator heat with two identical speed and distance runs. Run 1 was with battery purposely discharged as low as possible, just leaving adequate voltage for kick starting, then 65 watt headlight and heated vest on during the run. I maintained speed such that voltage never got high enough to put power to ground thru the reg.
At home I measured the heat rise in the stator. Ive forgotten the temp but it was just warm, not hot.
There was zero heat rise in the regulator as it wasn't doing any regulation.
Run number 2 was done after leaving the battery on the battery charger for 22 hours then running the same course with lights off and no heated vest used.
This made the regulator work hard.
The heat rise in the stator was identical to run number one.
There was heat rise in the regulator but it wasn't huge, just normal operation heat.
My conclusion is that the Podtronics shorting type regulators do not harm the charging system at all.

I would have guessed that as my oldest Pod is 23 years and that charging sytem still works as new.
I'm sorry to hear that the quality of these regs has gone down.
I purchased one a couple of years ago when building the 920. It works fine at present.
It will be interesting to see if it gives trouble.

Glen
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In theory, the stator will get hot with a "short-type" regulator and a fully charged battery and no lights on. Not really different than with a Zener. So, your tests confirm that to be an urban legend. It might be true with an excellent battery, a high-output stator, lights off, and on long run at high speed without stopping - but a hot stator is no issue unless it is so hot that the insulation or wires melt.

If the Podtronics has sufficient air movement, its heatsink will certainly keep it plenty cool.

I use the Tri-Spark MOSFET for these reasons:

WAY less leakage current (draw while bike turned off) than others.
Is smaller - easier to find a place to mount
Needs free air around it but not air flow
Does not produce noisy DC
 
I installed a SH775 Shindengen from Polaris before the price went crazy on my 08 Triumph T 100 , have a FH 020AA on my Thruxton and a Podtronics on my Norton, the at rest voltage draw with the SH775 was over two times the draw of the other R/R's , Charging and maintaining the battery they all work great but the draw with the SH775 worried me so I installed a relay to disconnect it from the battery with ignition off. Has anyone else noticed this or checked it or is mine the exception ?
 
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Dan1950 said:
I believe the SH775 is used on Polaris UTVs. There are ways to determine whether or not you are getting the genuine article.
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Apparenty the best way to identify a genuine one is the stainless plate underneath, but I think forgers are getting wise to that now.

Having searched around on EBay etc. it seems the SH775 is not easily available outside of Polaris dealers, so perhaps it's a special for them? The Polaris part no. is 4012941. I looked here and the price is $245 !!

So from what I'm reading in this thread the TRI-Spark is pretty good value.
 
Triton Thrasher said:
And also when the stator current is powering lights, vest, etc.
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That's right, it gets just as hot when it is busy doing the job it was designed to do.
It makes power ( up to max) in proportion to rpm and doesn't care if it that power is used to run electrical loads like lights, vest, ignition or is not needed and is directed to ground thru a reg.
 
There is mention in this thread of a leakage drain / parasitic loss with the Shindengen that I had not heard of before.

Is this a known thing?

I fitted one to mine at the same time as a minor re-wire and fitment of an electric start. Ever since, it has suffered a parasitic loss when parked that it never did before.

I had assumed it was related to the e-start, is it actually more likely to be the Shindengen ?

My Commando does stand for periods at times, so this de-charging is a bit of a PITA. If it is the Shindengen unit, I’ll probably try the Tri-Spark Mofset.

Constructive comments from those who understand all this black magic would be welcome …
 
Fast Eddie said:
There is mention in this thread of a leakage drain / parasitic loss with the Shindengen that I had not heard of before.

Is this a known thing?

I fitted one to mine at the same time as a minor re-wire and fitment of an electric start. Ever since, it has suffered a parasitic loss when parked that it never did before.

I had assumed it was related to the e-start, is it actually more likely to be the Shindengen ?

My Commando does stand for periods at times, so this de-charging is a bit of a PITA. If it is the Shindengen unit, I’ll probably try the Tri-Spark Mofset.

Constructive comments from those who understand all this black magic would be welcome …
Click to expand...
It’s unlikely to be the starter IMHO. There is an easy way to find out. With the ignition off, remove a battery terminal, then with a multimeter set on milliamps connect the meter in series. You’ll see the drain, then unplug the reg/rec and see if it disappears. Is it the SH775?
 
The Tri-Spark seemed a little spendy at the time but looks like good value compared to the Shindengen (cost) now.
Surely it would not be hard to fit some form of manual isolator or even an ignition activated relay in its circuit if there were troublesome leakage problems.

Shindengen (open type SCR) Regulator Installation MK II

 
Time Warp said:
Surely it would not be hard to fit some form of manual isolator or even an ignition activated relay
Click to expand...
Relays and extra switches in your ignition or charging circuits go against my principles of simplicity and reliability, but yes, it would not be difficult.
 
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