Post installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

Put a piece of scotch tape over the keyway to protect the seal as you slide it on. You can pull the tape out after the seal is slid over it. Jim

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Definitely. I had a similar issue with seals slowly weeping and lasting a year or two. I finally took a close look at the last failure and sure enough there was lip damage matching the crank keyway. It was never enough to cause instant leakage but over time it worsened. The edges of your keyway don't look too sharp but the lip of the seal can get slightly trapped between itself and the end of the slot, just enough to start the damage.
In addition, the keyway inner end is very close to the seal's lip and the key itself can cause damage as the sprocket is pushed on, if it is not seated fully first time around.
The other thing you can look for is wear on the seal journal, nicks etc.

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

Keith1069 said:

Put a piece of scotch tape over the keyway to protect the seal as you slide it on. You can pull the tape out after the seal is slid over it. Jim

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Definitely. I had a similar issue with seals slowly weeping and lasting a year or two. I finally took a close look at the last failure and sure enough there was lip damage matching the crank keyway. It was never enough to cause instant leakage but over time it worsened. The edges of your keyway don't look too sharp but the lip of the seal can get slightly trapped between itself and the end of the slot, just enough to start the damage.
In addition, the keyway inner end is very close to the seal's lip and the key itself can cause damage as the sprocket is pushed on, if it is not seated fully first time around.
The other thing you can look for is wear on the seal journal, nicks etc.

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more golden tips for the fix. I did not place tape over the keyway originally. I look forward to finding the issue and will take some high res pics to show damage if found...

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

iceteanolemon said:

1up3down said:

you say your primary chain is bouncing pretty good and slapping the bottom of the primary

sounds like it is too loose doesn't it?

You should be able to lift the upper chain in the middle about 3/8 of an inch from its resting position

any more than that and you will need to loosen the upper and lower gearbox mounts and the right side threaded adjuster two nuts and move the gearbox rearward a little to take out that slack, read the workshop manual for specific instructions

moving the gearbox backwards will then also slacken your rear chain so you will need to then reset that tension

And on to the overfilling primary: without going back over the pages of posts, did you say that you did recently install a new crank seal and if so when? Any chance you may have torn it on installation?

Red ATF fluid now confirmed darker and an ounce more primary fluid, so we know it IS coming through the crank seal and into the primary, really have no other choice but to grit your teeth and carefully remove your seal and put in a new one...............

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Yeha teeth are permenantly gritted....

I bought two seals and heres the picture of when I installed it originally a month *edit "while" ago....

Heres the video of the primary chain having a party in there....

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV_V8UlOlf0[/video]

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You have to use the long link for it to embed in the forum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV_V8UlOlf0

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

iceteanolemon said:

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That is one mighty sad looking stator. :cry:

It looks like it melted.

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

I would check the neoprene O-ring which is situated down stream of the oil pump between the timing chest and the crankcase . It holds full pressure, and if it fails, oil can go directly into the sump instead of through the crankshaft.

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

swooshdave said:

iceteanolemon said:

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That is one mighty sad looking stator. :cry:

It looks like it melted.

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Aw cmon! Its got plenty o miles left!!! Seriously though, it is pretty sad looking. I cant look at it without it crumbling a little bit more.... One thing that is cool though is it works! Ill replace it soon though. Maybe it will make it to be the first wall of fame for used parts.

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

So the saga continues.... I have been avoiding it for a few days since the temps outside are unbearable. I did though get a few glasses of wine in me tonight and it led me to the garage for some dismantling fun....


I took the primary apart to doublecheck the NEW crank oil seal I installed and noticed it is severely displaced. It was out a few mm!!! I popped it out with the end of a screwdriver with very little pressure at all. I am going to have to just say no to the rubber coated crank oil seals. Bad news for sure!!!


I have a stock one coming from old britts and I am going to heed Jims advice and JB it in. i took a few pics of the seal as it was sitting in there and also after I took it out. Notice how it has a cut worn through it from the key....

Really pissed I have to do this again but sometimes that is "how she goes"....

Enjoy....

Here is the seal as it was sitting... Notice how far its protruding!!


Here it is showing a nice flow of f$%^king oil coming out of the bottom!



Here it is after I removed it, notice its been worn by the woodruf key.



Heres a pic of my tank heheh

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

Nice, I love a white Norton.
Looks like you may have had a little extra crankcase pressure. Jim

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

Ditto on the tank, it's very nice. And yes there must have been some pressure to push the seal out like that.
Even in your earlier pic the keyway looks very close to the seal. Is that normal? I will be putting my engine back together again (AGAIN) soon, I'll take more notice of that aspect when I do.
Regarding your main problem, the wet sumping, my money is on the oil pump not scavenging properly. It's a pretty simple device, just some gears running in a cast iron housing. Removing the cover plate will soon reveal whether any teeth are missing.
I don't have first hand experience with the range of modifications Norton made during Commando manufacture, but I believe that, when they introduced the oil filter, they initially deleted the gauze strainer from the sump plug, which is at the entry to the scavenge port. This allowed any metal debris to be sucked straight into the pump. How bizarre is that?
I wonder if your pump may have been damaged that way. Even if your bike has a strainer, the pump may not be original and could have suffered that way.

Martin

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

OK the saga continues!

yesterday I received a new oil seal from Old Britts and last night after things cooled down I went out and replaced the rubber one. I followed Jims advice and used JB to epoxy it in. I also covered the keyway with electrical tape before sliding the new seal on.

After putting a new seal in I decided to tighten up the primary chain. I got it well in spec and things are good to go.

So this morning I headed out to the same stomping grounds "Backus Road" the 25.6 miles marker. I made it to Backus and when I stopped I noticed I did not have a bunch of oil coming from the primary. At this time I have made it in much better condition than the last time.

I took a look and noticed the right side of the bike is getting some oil here and there from the oil tank. I thought by looking at it that the fitting capping the chain oiler may be the issue. I opened the oil and checked levels and they are still good. Also as the bike idles, the oil return spurts oil and air as expected. It is a pain in the ass to have to focus so granularly on such things but the reward is you actually know what the hell is going on in there....

I took a few pics of the bike against the willow springs desert background. Next time I am gonna bring my wifes Canon and get some good pics. The desert is beautiful.




When I got home I did the same thing. Stopped the bike looked at things and noticed no oil burning on the pipes and no oil all over the place.

I then started the bike up again and let it idle while ducking my head under it. I noticed some ATF coming from the primary again. I dont know if oil has made it to the primary though as it is red. The oil level in the oil tank seems OK too.

I took a closer look at the bike with the seat off while idling and noticed the oil cap is leaking. The cork looks new in the cap but when the bike is idling I can watch oil literally shooting out from under the cap! So that mystery is solved but I am a little up in the air about the primary at the moment. I think another ride is in the plans and if the primary fills up then its off with the timing cover and I am delving into the oil pump...

Oh and on the way back I ran it up to 95mph without issue either!! (thats a big deal for me)

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

Seeking my own encouragement to have a clean machine. Yours looks so lovely in pure white and spit polish, extra annoying for even a smudge to mar the heavenly cloud sense. 95 mph is hauling ass and basically oil tight doing it is a feather in your Norton cap. I think past blow ups have slightly distorted Trixie Combats cases, so stays sealed until I get over 70 with enough throttle to climb grades, but if I kick up the speed and power to get there quick the weeps begin from base seam and head and top case behind barrels. Hey my feather is after ring gaps fixed no oil out the exhaust system. Sopping up others mood swings and time off road to face facts I'll have to split cases again and put thread/floss in seams or deal with power sprayers before stopping long in public, like the Lake of Pines 450 mile trip in couple of months. Ugh, also forks as the gaiters dissolving and seal over the brake weeps down on rotor after a while. Leaks have been a way of life this month, car leaked all coolant into oil pan and propane pipe to house leaked out all the gas.

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

Small amounts of oil coming from the primary is probably the number one reason people install belt drives. no oil- no leaks.

Most people run the primary case a little lower than the level plug to help keep the oil from leaking around the trans shaft. The felt seal in that area does very little to keep the oil in.

Where does the oil tank vent to. Originally it should vent into the air filter housing. Make sure the hose isn't kinked as the tank must be free to vent.

Then get a piece of cork gasket material from the parts store and make a new gasket for the oil cap. You want it to be a little thicker than the original. The originals always look new because they are so thin they hardly get used. Jim

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

hobot said:

Seeking my own encouragement to have a clean machine. Yours looks so lovely in pure white and spit polish, extra annoying for even a smudge to mar the heavenly cloud sense. 95 mph is hauling ass and basically oil tight doing it is a feather in your Norton cap. I think past blow ups have slightly distorted Trixie Combats cases, so stays sealed until I get over 70 with enough throttle to climb grades, but if I kick up the speed and power to get there quick the weeps begin from base seam and head and top case behind barrels. Hey my feather is after ring gaps fixed no oil out the exhaust system. Sopping up others mood swings and time off road to face facts I'll have to split cases again and put thread/floss in seams or deal with power sprayers before stopping long in public, like the Lake of Pines 450 mile trip in couple of months. Ugh, also forks as the gaiters dissolving and seal over the brake weeps down on rotor after a while. Leaks have been a way of life this month, car leaked all coolant into oil pan and propane pipe to house leaked out all the gas.

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Steve, I know somebody who sells crankcase reed breathers so trixie won't leak at speed. Jim

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

Ugh Jim, I've got an odd ball out law non Norton in my living room with exhaust eductor I'll have to vent with head intakes and exit restriction valve, but Trixie stays basically factory to test my wits and will power to get fully fettered with just inline Krank PCV. Last years LOP trip was sprung on me at end of me work day so stayed up all am fixing broke axle but was slack on needed retorques so sealant blown out with 2.5'x's too big ring gap by my return. Still tingling on the white bunny rabbit clean machine.

BTW my feather in cap on Peel done with fiber back up and rear sump mod with clear hose breather off TS cover was white glove sealed even inside the breather right at the TS cover end. It took stuck throttle event to cause leaks but even then mostly just smoke at the time and then self resealed for 2000 more miles. Wes wants to talk to you about using his cabin in Mt's near Publeo CO, so while distracted I'll snoop up under yours.

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

hobot said:

Seeking my own encouragement to have a clean machine. Yours looks so lovely in pure white and spit polish, extra annoying for even a smudge to mar the heavenly cloud sense. 95 mph is hauling ass and basically oil tight doing it is a feather in your Norton cap. I think past blow ups have slightly distorted Trixie Combats cases, so stays sealed until I get over 70 with enough throttle to climb grades, but if I kick up the speed and power to get there quick the weeps begin from base seam and head and top case behind barrels. Hey my feather is after ring gaps fixed no oil out the exhaust system. Sopping up others mood swings and time off road to face facts I'll have to split cases again and put thread/floss in seams or deal with power sprayers before stopping long in public, like the Lake of Pines 450 mile trip in couple of months. Ugh, also forks as the gaiters dissolving and seal over the brake weeps down on rotor after a while. Leaks have been a way of life this month, car leaked all coolant into oil pan and propane pipe to house leaked out all the gas.

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Thanks for the kudos! I have had an experience with many differnet leaks on this thing and they all seem to add up to building my mechanical experience. Its like a game really. Smash a mole??

I recently sent an emai lto my dad telling him I had a goal with this thing. 500mi with no leaks and to get it up to 100mph. I guess I outta nurse it along and go for the speed dash at the last mi in case anything goes awry!!!

I think I want to get it out again this weekend to see if I can get it to leak. I will go for 60mi and watch it close. Jim mentions to use a thicker cork on the oil cap and I will do that. Today before I roll out I will wash the oil off the side too so I am starting again fresh. It is good to have a clean bike, its difficult to keep clean but when you put in the effort then leaks and stuff are way easier to see!

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

comnoz said:

Small amounts of oil coming from the primary is probably the number one reason people install belt drives. no oil- no leaks.

Most people run the primary case a little lower than the level plug to help keep the oil from leaking around the trans shaft. The felt seal in that area does very little to keep the oil in.

Where does the oil tank vent to. Originally it should vent into the air filter housing. Make sure the hose isn't kinked as the tank must be free to vent.

Then get a piece of cork gasket material from the parts store and make a new gasket for the oil cap. You want it to be a little thicker than the original. The originals always look new because they are so thin they hardly get used. Jim

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I put 7oz in there. I will find out if it settles out and stays red soon. I can take a little leak here and there but when I see the oil mixing with the ATF I get the tools out... Today is a good day though as the ATF is still red and the other oil leak revealed itself as something trivial....

The breather hose was run by P.O. to the end of my fender and it plops a few drops here and there after the rides. There must be some fogging on it too since it keeps the lic plate and bottom of the rear fender a little "damp".... I keep meaning to put a little gunk collector bottle or something together and let it breathe into that instead.

If I get oil in the primary this weekend that timing sides coming off. I will use the wifes cool camera for some good documentation. I used my earlier thread on the primary installation last night to remember details on that. This site is definitely a help.

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

Looks like I am back to the drawing board!

I went on a evening ride yesterday to see if things were still tight and I got it to leak. I went about 50mi and it was fine up till I got home and when I got home I noticed ATF spewing again. I checked the oil level and sure enough it was down a 1/2 quart!

I will wait till afternoon and go through it again. This is certainly a test in patience.


I think I want to triple check the oil lines again to make sure all is breathing freely. I see oil spurting back into the tank when i check it hot so thats good, I also see a little oil come from the oil tank breather to atmosphere tube. I take this as a good sign. I just dont know how im pushing oil into the primary still.

The new seal is JB welded in and I took great care to make sure it was done well. I also used electrical tape over the keyway to make sure the seal didnt get damaged when installing.

I think I will pull the breather tube from the sump breather and blow air through it. Maybe something blocked it somehow and it drove the pressure up? I dont know, I will probably be taking the timing side off too if nothing obvious reveals itself. Maybe something with the oil pump is creating issues with crank pressure after the oil is well heated up?

Thanks god for my huge supply of trader joe bags or my garage would be pretty slippery.

Are you saying that you lost 1/2 quart of oil to the primary from the crank in a 50 mile run? How did you check your oil after the run, just the dip stick or did you drain the system? After your run, did you drain the sump to see if a scavenge issue is present? If not, you may want to give that a go.

Again, the accumulation of oil in the crankcase has nothing to do with or without a the breather. If oil is accumulating to a point during the run where it reaches the seal of even the lower inner primary screw hole, a scavenge issue is evident.

Oil draining while sitting is one thing, accumulating while running is another.

Oil lines crossed (hopefully), blocked oil scavenge ways to the pump blocked (not uncommon), pump in need of reconditioning or replacing (no matter what your people say, bench testing does not show real world results in this circumstance)?

Just an added thought, seeing the return sputter and spatter in a normally drained sump manner may also mimick a system that is cavitating from a starving pump. That is to say oil not flowing freely to the pump. Sorry!

Oil coming from the scavenge pump mixed with pockets of air would usually indicate the pump has successfully emptied the crankcase to the point it is drawing air. OR the pump is drawing air from something else like a bad or missing pump to crankcase gasket or a damaged pump.
Cavitation from a restricted suction passage? Maybe- but what I have seen when the passage was restricted was just a slow trickle of oil into the tank. Jim

I did not remove the oil fr mthe sump or primary after the ride. I probably should have but I think I am seeing very similar results and perhaps fixing the crank oil seal masked the issue for another 50mi.

I plan on removing the timing side now and getting into the oil pump. I sure hope I can find something obvious. Lots of investigation on this one for sure!

My line of professional work is Network Engineering and in this profession there is a large emphasis dedicated to methods of deduction to troubleshoot and resolve issues. I think that is probably why I have a Norton in the first place. I do alot of reproducing a problem and finding root cause in daily work. I think this is bike is my chance to do it in an analog sense, kinda like getting back to roots I guess.

Well today I will be measuring just how much oil I lost to the primary as well as pulling the oil pump and looking at that. As far as the oil lines I have going I think they are right.


I only checked the oil with the dipstick. I did not tear into it as I was hungry and had to hang it up for the night. I will deduct some real facts today for sure when the temps settle... Its 101f right now.