Post installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

OK today I am going to give this a try. I put a route together and I will ride out the route and pay attention to fluid levels and where the issues start (if they start)....



Yesterday I rode out a good 15 miles without problems. I went out this morning and say some small weep leaks from the oil line, two drips on the floor really. The test will be if the bike ends up sumping out on the road.

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

CNW said:

Yes Jim......You have 32 heads to build !!!

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

Click to expand...

Is the sump breather on your site yet? I can't find it.

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

swooshdave said:

CNW said:

Yes Jim......You have 32 heads to build !!!

Matt / Colorado Norton Works

Click to expand...

Is the sump breather on your site yet? I can't find it.

Click to expand...

Not yet. Jim

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

OK so I got the bike all ready and went out today to see if the breather fixed my issues. to make a long story short, I think root cause stil exists and the breather didnt eliminate the symptoms. It may have reduced the impact of the issue but I still arrived at the halfway point with oil in the primary and when I got hoime I was managing a steady leak from the felt seal due to flow into the primary at a slow but steady rate.


The ambient temperature was 98 degrees today so it was a little bit hot out there. I chose to take a route that had good cell signal as well as did not have many stops or turns or traffic. The wind is low this morning too so that was not an issue.

The bike was ready with no oil in sump and 7oz ATF in the primary. I made sure the oil indicator for the dipstick was maybe a 1/2 oz over the L mark. The bike ran well the whole time and t had plenty of power. I rode a steady 4000rpm or so and this was at or around 6mph the whole time. I tried to go a steady rate as that was where the sumping would begin before on long rides.

When I made it to the half way mark (Backus Road) I stopped on the side of the road and put the bike on the side stand so I could stick my head under the bike while its idling and see whats goin on. I saw that the ATF was coming out of the felt seal and running down the primary. I tunred the bike off and watched a healthy bit of ATF blurb out of that felt seal then stop. I sat there poindering in the heat about the oil pump and how that is the only thing I haven't messed with yet.... Also thinking about someone mentioning scavenge issues and my early readings about how oil pumps in bad shape dont scavenge well. (I have 0 experience rebuilding the oil pump so its all from readings)




I take a oil check on the dipstick and it looks to have kept the same oil level. Strange since I just watched the primary puke a bit of its 7oz out the felt seal....

The time contemplating in the desert was nice, Mojave desert has a eerie calm to it that helps someone think. The blistering sun started to bug me and I decided it was time to wipe up and roll out.

I turned the bike around and fired it up to go on. This is about 26 miles into the test ride.

I started off on the route and got the bike up to a steady 60mph. All the while feeling the torque and generally enjoying everything about the ride. I spend a good amount of time bitching about this oil leak but in between this time I actually enjoy this bike

So I keep looking down at the left pipe and noticing a streak or two forming of oil, this is right off the primary. The primary oil started out red and gently as coming home looked like it was darkening.

Now as I roll into my driveway I notice the oil is all over the left pipe but it is not spewing out of the bike like it would before. I suspect the sump plug breather is helping this not to happen, I see this is a different experience but for me right now it is all about root cause and I fear the sump breather is helping cover up root cause. :cry:

So I get home and prop it up to take the primary off and measure the fluid levels. I notice the Primary now has 8oz of fluid and it is mix red black so I think it is contaminated.



I then check the dipstick and its 1.5oz short!

Now I think about the situation and want to leverage the opportunity to analyze the situation while the bike is good and hot. I want to fire the bike up while hot and actually watch the oil come out of the crank in to the primary. I get it going and then think I will borrow my wifes camera and film it too. So I set up and give it a shot. I cant get oil to come out but for a few drips. It must just steadily seep out really slowly or something. I let the bike idle then rev a bit.

Added movie....
[video]http://youtu.be/OV_V8UlOlf0[/video]

Also I see when the bikes running with the primary cover off that the chain is bouncin around a plenty. How much play needs to be in that chain? I also notice a few scrape marks on the primary bottom from the chain scraping at a time. Nothing severe but the chain seems to bounce around alot when at idle etc....



Also after this experiment I decide the drop the sump plug and see whats in the sump. I didn't take a picture but there was 14oz of oil in the sump.

So could it be my oil pump is just not effective enough at cruising speed to keep the sump scavenged? If so then is there some pictures of what I have to do to make this thing a done deal and get it running right?

Couple of questions...

Bummer! Hope you can find the problem soon.

Have you reported on oil flow back into the tank fill neck from the new crankcase breather line?
Do you have a strong pulsing pressure with oil or mist from the breather line?

How is your oil tank breather line routed? (The left side hose clamped line in the photo)

I might suggest that you have a partially blocked oil pickup line to the scavenge side of the oil pump if you have a lot of
oil returning to the tank from the crankcase breather hose.

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

Sounds to me like you may have several things going on there. I'd check the primary gearbox seal, pull of the primary chain and check your crank seal too. Only way you can get extra oil in the primary is from the engine or gearbox or if you put it in there. Is your gearbox over filled? Are you sure there are no extra holes from the crank into the primary? You may also want to check the oil pump for pressure and delivery, don't ask me how. I don't understand how 1 extra oz of fluid in the primary is going to start it leaking out the felt seal. Yes that chain can flop around pretty good, but it shouldn't hit anything.

Did you get the bike like this or did it all of a sudden start, what's the history?

Dave
69S

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

DogT said:

Sounds to me like you may have several things going on there. I'd check the primary gearbox seal, pull of the primary chain and check your crank seal too. Only way you can get extra oil in the primary is from the engine or gearbox or if you put it in there. Is your gearbox over filled? Are you sure there are no extra holes from the crank into the primary? You may also want to check the oil pump for pressure and delivery, don't ask me how. I don't understand how 1 extra oz of fluid in the primary is going to start it leaking out the felt seal. Yes that chain can flop around pretty good, but it shouldn't hit anything.

Did you get the bike like this or did it all of a sudden start, what's the history?

Dave
69S

Click to expand...

I have been fighting this since I got the bike, it is good for short jaunts and under 25miles I am good. But after that it just lets oil to the primary and the leak is clearly from where the felt seal meets at the rear of the primary.

I have been meticulous about the process by adding a new crank seal, replacing the three primary bolts with studs etc. 70z of ATF exactly. Do you think 14oz of oil in the sump after running a hour thorugh the desert is normal? I can peer into the oil tank and see the return line spurting oil back up to the tank. I just dont know what kind of volume this is operating at. I think the volume is the key, it seems the scavenge is just not keeping up with whats going to the sump at cruising speeds.

edit* no extra holes to primary, just the three studs and the crank seal (NEW)....

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

you say your primary chain is bouncing pretty good and slapping the bottom of the primary

sounds like it is too loose doesn't it?

You should be able to lift the upper chain in the middle about 3/8 of an inch from its resting position

any more than that and you will need to loosen the upper and lower gearbox mounts and the right side threaded adjuster two nuts and move the gearbox rearward a little to take out that slack, read the workshop manual for specific instructions

moving the gearbox backwards will then also slacken your rear chain so you will need to then reset that tension

And on to the overfilling primary: without going back over the pages of posts, did you say that you did recently install a new crank seal and if so when? Any chance you may have torn it on installation?

Red ATF fluid now confirmed darker and an ounce more primary fluid, so we know it IS coming through the crank seal and into the primary, really have no other choice but to grit your teeth and carefully remove your seal and put in a new one...............

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

1up3down said:

you say your primary chain is bouncing pretty good and slapping the bottom of the primary

sounds like it is too loose doesn't it?

You should be able to lift the upper chain in the middle about 3/8 of an inch from its resting position

any more than that and you will need to loosen the upper and lower gearbox mounts and the right side threaded adjuster two nuts and move the gearbox rearward a little to take out that slack, read the workshop manual for specific instructions

moving the gearbox backwards will then also slacken your rear chain so you will need to then reset that tension

And on to the overfilling primary: without going back over the pages of posts, did you say that you did recently install a new crank seal and if so when? Any chance you may have torn it on installation?

Red ATF fluid now confirmed darker and an ounce more primary fluid, so we know it IS coming through the crank seal and into the primary, really have no other choice but to grit your teeth and carefully remove your seal and put in a new one...............

Click to expand...

Yeha teeth are permenantly gritted....

I bought two seals and heres the picture of when I installed it originally a month *edit "while" ago....



Heres the video of the primary chain having a party in there....

http://youtu.be/OV_V8UlOlf0

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

Try this, but don't get it too tight. It will tighten up when it gets hot, I don't understand why, but it does.

"I've always found it difficult to measure the total up-and-down play of the chain, because you have to wiggle the chain up and down somehow and also measure how much it's moving, all through a small hole. An easier way is to measure a tight chain compared to a slack chain, since this is half the total up-and-down play. To do this, make two marks 3/16" apart [not 3/8"] on the end of a stick or piece of paper. Then put the bike on the centerstand and the gearbox in 4th, and lie on the ground next to the primary.

Now, if you move the rear tire in the forward direction with your foot, the bottom of the chain tightens and you get all the slack on top. If you move the rear tire in the backward direction, all the slack is on the bottom and the top is tight. So pick out some feature on the chain (top of link, bottom of link, rivet, etc.) , and compare it to the two marks as you move the wheel back and forth. You can easily see how much it's moving compared with the two marks and loosen the chain appropriately. (BUT DON'T OVERSHOOT! If you get it TOO loose, you have to tighten it and start all over again).

Once the tight chain/slack chain play is 3/16", you know the total up and down play is 3/8". I also try to check it later when the engine is really hot. You can do this at the side of the road, and there should be at least SOME play then, or it needs to be a little looser.
Mike Taglieri"

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

Heres the video of the primary chain having a party in there....

Click to expand...

she be dancing

time to move the gearbox aft a tad.......

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

iceteanolemon said:

Also after this experiment I decide the drop the sump plug and see whats in the sump. I didn't take a picture but there was 14oz of oil in the sump.

So could it be my oil pump is just not effective enough at cruising speed to keep the sump scavenged? If so then is there some pictures of what I have to do to make this thing a done deal and get it running right?

Click to expand...

14 oz of oil in the sump immediately after shutdown is quite a bit. I am thinking there may be a problem with the scavenge side of the oil pump. If the bike sat for a few hours before you checked- then that may be normal.

I see two possibilities. Either excess crankcase pressure before the breather was fitted has dislodged the crankshaft oil seal or the oil pump has damage and is not scavenging the cases well enough.

If you look into the top of the oil tank after the engine has been warmed up you should see oil return squirting from the holes in the tube visible under the cap. It should be squirts of oil mixed with pockets of air .. If there is only a slow stream of oil but no air pockets with the engine at 12 to 15 hundred RPM then the scavenge side of the oil pump likely has had some foreign material run through it and has damaged gears. Removing the oil pump and inspecting it is easy. The hardest part is re-setting the timing.
Set the engine at the timing mark in the primary chaincase and then mark the position of the timing rotor in relation to the timing cover before you pull the rotor to help get it back where it was when you re-assemble it. Feel free to call me if you want to discuss the problem. Jim 719-821-5708

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

comnoz said:

iceteanolemon said:

Also after this experiment I decide the drop the sump plug and see whats in the sump. I didn't take a picture but there was 14oz of oil in the sump.

So could it be my oil pump is just not effective enough at cruising speed to keep the sump scavenged? If so then is there some pictures of what I have to do to make this thing a done deal and get it running right?

Click to expand...

14 oz of oil in the sump immediately after shutdown is quite a bit. I am thinking there may be a problem with the scavenge side of the oil pump. If the bike sat for a few hours before you checked- then that may be normal.

I see two possibilities. Either excess crankcase pressure before the breather was fitted has dislodged the crankshaft oil seal or the oil pump has damage and is not scavenging the cases well enough.

If you look into the top of the oil tank after the engine has been warmed up you should see oil return squirting from the holes in the tube visible under the cap. It should be squirts of oil mixed with pockets of air .. If there is only a slow stream of oil but no air pockets with the engine at 12 to 15 hundred RPM then the scavenge side of the oil pump likely has had some foreign material run through it and has damaged gears. Removing the oil pump and inspecting it is easy. The hardest part is re-setting the timing.
Set the engine at the timing mark in the primary chaincase and then mark the position of the timing rotor in relation to the timing cover before you pull the rotor to help get it back where it was when you re-assemble it. Feel free to call me if you want to discuss the problem. Jim 719-821-5708

Click to expand...

Yeah I am thinking now on the lines of the oil pump being buggered up or something. I have the primary cover off though so it doesnt take me longer than 15 min to get to the crank oil seal as well. When it cools down today I may just get at both of them to see if the oil seal is messed up, then I will take the timing cover off and get to the oil pump.

I have electronic ignition so its pretty easy to set that back up. I also can do the mechanical timing as I have had tons of practice with that too. I usually get something right by doing it 15 times.

When I get the oil pump out I will have to learn as I go though as I have not seen a good walkthrough anywhere on servicing one. I just see lots of talk about the grinding, lapping and such.

This page comes to mind http://www.nortonownersclub.org/support ... ump-repair

No actual detailed articles with pictures for me though. I guess not everything is idiot proof.

Now for the Sump breather, I am thinking I need to search for root cause and see how it performs without the breather. I only want to add it if it enhances the performance or function. Of course I am open to understanding how the experts weigh in on the situation.

So in this order I will

#1 remove primary chain and pull/inspect the crank oil seal.

If seal is messed up ripped etc I will reinstall new one and button it up to give it another whirl.

If seal is good I will go on to #2....

#2 Pull timing cover and take apart oil pump. Take a bunch of pictures and figure that deal out.

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

just a thought on installing a new seal

we used to, is it still a good idea to put a smear of red locktight stuff around the outside diameter of the mainseal

so that it cannot get loose and rotate around with the crank, thereby potentially allowing more oil to get in?

I am pretty sure I remember Heinz Kegler telling he did that when he put a new seal in for me three years ago.

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

1up3down said:

just a thought on installing a new seal

we used to, is it still a good idea to put a smear of red locktight stuff around the outside diameter of the mainseal

so that it cannot get loose and rotate around with the crank, thereby potentially allowing more oil to get in?

I am pretty sure I remember Heinz Kegler telling he did that when he put a new seal in for me three years ago.

Click to expand...

from a conversation with JimC he mentioned using the norton seal with the metal outer diameter and using somehting on it to epoxy it in. I dont believe we talked about what to use to put on there in granularity.... I am sure loctite has a product that can do the job. I will have to look around.

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

iceteanolemon said:

1up3down said:

just a thought on installing a new seal

we used to, is it still a good idea to put a smear of red locktight stuff around the outside diameter of the mainseal

so that it cannot get loose and rotate around with the crank, thereby potentially allowing more oil to get in?

I am pretty sure I remember Heinz Kegler telling he did that when he put a new seal in for me three years ago.

Click to expand...

from a conversation with JimC he mentioned using the norton seal with the metal outer diameter and using somehting on it to epoxy it in. I dont believe we talked about what to use to put on there in granularity.... I am sure loctite has a product that can do the job. I will have to look around.

Click to expand...

I use a thin smear of JB weld in the bore before I put the seal in. Pretty much any epoxy would do the job. Just don't use so much that it gets pushed into the bearing. I have not had as good of luck using locktite for that.

Put a piece of scotch tape over the keyway to protect the seal as you slide it on. You can pull the tape out after the seal is slid over it. Jim

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

comnoz said:

iceteanolemon said:

1up3down said:

just a thought on installing a new seal

we used to, is it still a good idea to put a smear of red locktight stuff around the outside diameter of the mainseal

so that it cannot get loose and rotate around with the crank, thereby potentially allowing more oil to get in?

I am pretty sure I remember Heinz Kegler telling he did that when he put a new seal in for me three years ago.

Click to expand...

from a conversation with JimC he mentioned using the norton seal with the metal outer diameter and using somehting on it to epoxy it in. I dont believe we talked about what to use to put on there in granularity.... I am sure loctite has a product that can do the job. I will have to look around.

Click to expand...

I use a thin smear of JB weld in the bore before I put the seal in. Pretty much any epoxy would do the job. Just don't use so much that it gets pushed into the bearing. I have not had as good of luck using locktite for that.

Put a piece of scotch tape over the keyway to protect the seal as you slide it on. You can pull the tape out after the seal is slid over it. Jim

Click to expand...

whoa jb! When you said epoxy you meant it!

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

I just use JB weld because I always have lots of it around the shop. It is no more difficult to remove than any other epoxy. It scrapes right off when the time comes- especially if you soften it up with a rag soaked in lacquer thinner or acetone for a bit first. Jim

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

The 68 Workshop Manual pretty much walks you through the oil pump but it doesn't do any repair or test work on it. If you need that manual, it's available on line, if you need it, I can probably find it for you. I'm sure there's a way to test it though.

Dave
69S

Re: Pre installation of Comnoz Sump Breather (71 norton)

I always lube the fine lip of the seal when I install a new one. It's just a tiny sharp edge and I've always felt it would be easy to overheat and hurt on dry startup. Not saying this is your trouble or even if this is a real concern. It's just what I do...

I'll be interested to see what you find in your investigations.