Norton Commando John Player Peter Williams replica build

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Fast Eddie said:
That’s very true Steve. I think production racing always has been, and always will be, as much about who can be the most ‘creative’ with and around the rules as it is about the action on the track.

And followers / supporters are no better... when it’s someone we like we say they were being ‘creative‘ or at the worst ‘cheeky’... when it’s someone we don’t like, well, they were cheating !
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The best rules is no rules. Rule minimalisation encourages creativity and continual improvement. Most rules in racing are directed at improving sales of certain types of motorcycles. Controlling bodies care often subject to commercial influence. If the rules were constructed around the type of motorcycle based upon their technology and engine capacity, we would be in a better position to be creative
 
Strictly speaking, the Irving Vincent is a cheater. There is probably not even one Vincent part in or on it. But it is so good that it would be criminal to stop it from racing. It races in historic races and it would take a MotoGP bike to beat it. I love to see it because it is what a Vincent could have become, if the factory had stayed in business.
 
acotrel said:
The best rules is no rules.
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I strongly disagree with that.

Firstly, in terms of production racing, which this conversation was about, it is patently impossible to have no rules... the very definition of the class is a rule to begin with !

Secondly, to have no rules means that ultimately, you would have only one class, of one type of machine. No cc differentiation, age, twin shock, road tyres only, etc, etc.

But perhaps most important of all, people forget that actually rules are there partly to help the little man. Take away the rules and the team with the biggest cheque book wins. Period.
 
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Fast Eddie said:
... in terms of production racing... people forget that actually rules are the partly to help the little man. Take away the rules and the team with the biggest cheque book wins.
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You would not like AHRMA Production then. Plenty of cheater bikes there. They need to fill grids to pay the bills, and NOBODY is going to do a teardown if there is a protest, so what's the point?
 
grandpaul said:
You would not like AHRMA Production then. Plenty of cheater bikes there. They need to fill grids to pay the bills, and NOBODY is going to do a teardown if there is a protest, so what's the point?
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You‘re right, I wouldn’t!

But they still got rules. They’re just choosing not to enforce them.

Maybe they should change the rules to make the class more attractive?
 
Fast Eddie said:
Maybe they should change the rules to make the class more attractive?
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It's still quite attractive, typically better grid counts than a half-handful of other classes.

They do "police" riders that win more than a few races, and "encourage them to bump up to other classes; also, you can't use a proddie bike to run in any other class. (never asked if it was only due to red numbers on a white plate?)
 
It’s quite common here that both other competitors and the officials will turn a blind, or at least lazy, eye to some mild rule stretching IF the offender isn’t winning.
Personally I think that’s fair enough.
 
When the Castrol 6 hour production race was run in Australia, the scrutineering was extremely stringent, but there was still cheating. How would you detect an inch cut off the top of a Ducati exhaust to raise the exhaust pipe to improve ground clearance? Or the barrels moved on a four cylinder bike to change the cam timing ?
 
When I race, I don't care what anybody does to cheat. If they can make a Commando go faster than mine and out-ride me, I accept defeat gracefully. Personal satisfaction is important. As long as the other guy's bike is technically the same type as my own, I can usually beat them. If a guy came along with a modern Ducati, they would actually be irrelevant to what I am doing. What IS important, is if the other guy is riding a bevel Ducati of less than 1000cc. Then you have to have a real go at him. It is not winning a race which is important it is whether you finish ahead of the other guys who have the same sorts of technical challenges.
 
acotrel said:
When the Castrol 6 hour production race was run in Australia, the scrutineering was extremely stringent, but there was still cheating. How would you detect an inch cut off the top of a Ducati exhaust to raise the exhaust pipe to improve ground clearance? Or the barrels moved on a four cylinder bike to change the cam timing ?
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Ok Al, you got me... moving the barrels on a 4 cylinder bike changes the cam timing...
Can you elaborate please ?
 
If the barrels are moved on the cases, a couple of mm towards the back, everything happens a few degrees earlier. So you get a slightly bigger gulp of fuel mix and the exhaust opens earlier and you get slightly more torque. I can't think of the guy's name who did it, but I think he was caught. There was a lot of stuff which went on. I don't believe pistons were ever weighed. The need for such careful scrutineering was probably the reason that race stopped. It had to be done before the race, because if it was done as a result of a protest, the bike which finished first still got the publicity. One guy got pinged when it was found his bike had no horn - he was a winner. The next year he rode around the circuit beeping it to show it was there.
 
acotrel said:
If the barrels are moved on the cases, a couple of mm towards the back, everything happens a few degrees earlier. So you get a slightly bigger gulp of fuel mix and the exhaust opens earlier and you get slightly more torque. I can't think of the guy's name who did it, but I think he was caught. There was a lot of stuff which went on. I don't believe pistons were ever weighed. The need for such careful scrutineering was probably the reason that race stopped. It had to be done before the race, because if it was done as a result of a protest, the bike which finished first still got the publicity. One guy got pinged when it was found his bike had no horn - he was a winner. The next year he rode around the circuit beeping it to show it was there.
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Do you realise how far you‘d actually have to move them to make a difference?

And the work involved, machining the case mouths, stud positions, etc?

I think someone was pulling your leg...
 
Searched the web as I recall dim and distant memories of US saloon car racers building slightly smaller versions of their cars (with the obvious weight advantage) which lead to vehicle templates being made by the scrutineers. Nothing out there in cyberville to back it up, but... a few naughty people here:

jalopnik.com

The Ten Most Ingenious Cheats In Automotive History

Amid the VW dieselgate shitshow we wondered about the other automotive cheaters who nearly got away. Thankfully, you, our readers gave us the answers. Why take the long way around when you could cheat your way through?
jalopnik.com jalopnik.com
 
If everyone cheats, and there's no oversight, why have rules ???

It'd probably take the fun away from cheating ;)
 
Fast Eddie said:
IIRC production racing allows you to change cam timing... just not the cams themselves...
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Depends on the rules in your country, I suppose. Back in the '70s when I raced in the production classes with local clubs here in the US, we were allowed any internal changes (except too much displacement :rolleyes:), as long as they didn't show. We still had to have the original carbs and pipes, but the pipes could be gutted, as long as they passed the sound spec. I think the reason was to avoid having to tear down engines for protests. We only had to do that for displacement protests.

Ken
 
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