Norton Commando John Player Peter Williams replica build

lcrken · Jun 11, 2020

TDFcc said:
YES!!

I think that one is actually the 1973-74 version of the PR, as modified by the factory race team and raced by Norman White, Dave Croxford, et. al. These are a couple of other pictures of them from the ad brochures at the time.

Norton Commando John Player Peter Williams replica build

I'm not sure when they first raced the white one with the modified exhaust, but I don't believe they raced under the John Player team name until 1972. I think the versions raced earlier in 1970 looked more like the standard customer PR, like this one, taken from an earlier ad brochure. But I could be wrong. If so, I'm sure someone with better info will chime in.

As to spigoting the gearbox to the crankcases, I think you are probably referring to the process Norman White used to spigot the gearbox and crankcases to the engine cradle, as described by Seeley 920 above. I visisted Norman at his shop back in the '80s when he was building the first replicas of his JPN race bike (the F750 one, not the PR), and he showed me how he did the spigots. He was also offering that service for Commando customers at the time. I only recall seeing them done on the crankcases, but he may have done the same on the gearbox.

Ken

SteveA · Jun 11, 2020

JOHNO23 said:
Marine motors, quite possibly, but there were 5 Norton’s in there excluding the JPN Nortons. Nothing wrong with a bit of diversity...........

Indeed, but it isn't the motors themselves he is in to....he has a boat down in Devon....which is why Dave Croxford calls him Captain Pugwash!

SteveA · Jun 11, 2020

Fast Eddie said:
IMHO, when it comes to spigoting of engine cases, and internals, etc I’d say there’s just no need to get too obsessive. Better to choose wisely from the various upgrades and options available today.

But when it comes to things like rims sizes and tyres, I’d go with the correct spec as that’ll make or break the quality of the replica.

I think that is what I was trying to say...ta!

SteveA · Jun 11, 2020

lcrken said:
I think that one is actually the 1973-74 version of the PR, as modified by the factory race team and raced by Norman White, Dave Croxford, et. al. These are a couple of other pictures of them from the ad brochures at the time.

View attachment 16918

View attachment 16920

I'm not sure when they first raced the white one with the modified exhaust, but I don't believe they raced under the John Player team name until 1972. I think the versions raced earlier in 1970 looked more like the standard customer PR, like this one, taken from an earlier ad brochure. But I could be wrong. If so, I'm sure someone with better info will chime in.

View attachment 16921

As to spigoting the gearbox to the crankcases, I think you are probably referring to the process Norman White used to spigot the gearbox and crankcases to the engine cradle, as described by Seeley 920 above. I visisted Norman at his shop back in the '80s when he was building the first replicas of his JPN race bike (the F750 one, not the PR), and he showed me how he did the spigots. He was also offering that service for Commando customers at the time. I only recall seeing them done on the crankcases, but he may have done the same on the gearbox.

Ken

Two similar looking bikes Ken, but the first picture has the first version of the pannier tanks doesn't it?

cliffa · Jun 11, 2020

SteveA said:
Two similar looking bikes Ken, but the first picture has the first version of the pannier tanks doesn't it?

Definitely, you can see the fuel tap right at the bottom of the fairing / cum pannier tank in the first piccy.

lcrken · Jun 11, 2020

SteveA said:
Two similar looking bikes Ken, but the first picture has the first version of the pannier tanks doesn't it?

That's how it looks to me, Steve. That is the last (1974) version of the PR, as far as I can tell, not counting the Thruxton Club Racer). I don't have any pictures of it being raced, but it does have Croxford's name on it. The few pictures I have of Peter Williams on the white JPN PR show it with the standard fairing, as in the second picture above.

And a little update. I checked, and Norton did not race under John Player sponsorship until 1972. In the earlier races the prototype PRs looked pretty much like the yellow one above, but were not always yellow. Once they started racing production PRs, they were all yellow, until '73 and '74, when you started to see the white ones.

This is a picture of Peter Williams on the white PR that shows a little bit of detail, like the ignition system, from Peter's book. I think it is from 1973.

Peter Williams on the White JPN PR 1200.jpg

Ken

swooshdave · Jun 11, 2020

lcrken said:
I think that one is actually the 1973-74 version of the PR, as modified by the factory race team and raced by Norman White, Dave Croxford, et. al. These are a couple of other pictures of them from the ad brochures at the time.

View attachment 16920

I'm not sure when they first raced the white one with the modified exhaust, but I don't believe they raced under the John Player team name until 1972. I think the versions raced earlier in 1970 looked more like the standard customer PR, like this one, taken from an earlier ad brochure. But I could be wrong. If so, I'm sure someone with better info will chime in.

As to spigoting the gearbox to the crankcases, I think you are probably referring to the process Norman White used to spigot the gearbox and crankcases to the engine cradle, as described by Seeley 920 above. I visisted Norman at his shop back in the '80s when he was building the first replicas of his JPN race bike (the F750 one, not the PR), and he showed me how he did the spigots. He was also offering that service for Commando customers at the time. I only recall seeing them done on the crankcases, but he may have done the same on the gearbox.

Ken

Does this bike still exist?

People build replica, even exact replicas for various reasons. Some because it's too expensive to ride the original or the original doesn't exist.

And some people build an exact copy just to do it.

All good reasons.

lcrken · Jun 11, 2020

swooshdave said:
Does this bike still exist?

People build replica, even exact replicas for various reasons. Some because it's too expensive to ride the original or the original doesn't exist.

And some people build an exact copy just to do it.

All good reasons.

Good question. I have no idea. Race bikes frequently get raced hard and then just used as parts for the next racer. Maybe someone with knowledge of its history will chime in. The only person I can think of to ask would be Norman White. Maybe one of the listers who is still in contact with him could ask if he knows.

Ken

jseng1 · Jun 11, 2020

Reduced top end with the restricted outlet on those pipes.

swooshdave · Jun 11, 2020

jseng1 said:
Reduced top end with the restricted outlet on those pipes.

But they are officially the sexiest pipes on a Norton... ever.

lcrken · Jun 11, 2020

jseng1 said:
Reduced top end with the restricted outlet on those pipes.

Raced in the Production class, so had to run stock silencers. Might have been gutted inside. I don't know what the specific rules were back then.

Ken

JOHNO23 · Jun 11, 2020

lcrken said:
Good question. I have no idea. Race bikes frequently get raced hard and then just used as parts for the next racer. Maybe someone with knowledge of its history will chime in. The only person I can think of to ask would be Norman White. Maybe one of the listers who is still in contact with him could ask if he knows.

Ken

Norman has recently rebuilt my engine for me.He is in the workshop most days I think. He is very approachable and easy to talk to, give him a call. I think he,not that long ago built a John Player Norton replica from scratch for a guy in the States.

TDFcc · Jun 12, 2020

JOHNO23 said:
Norman has recently rebuilt my engine for me.He is in the workshop most days I think. He is very approachable and easy to talk to, give him a call. I think he,not that long ago built a John Player Norton replica from scratch for a guy in the States.

Do you have any contact details? I guess I'd give it a 2nd try?

jan nelder · Jun 12, 2020

google :”norman white norton” It gives his website and phone number!

Bernhard · Jun 12, 2020

jseng1 said:
Reduced top end with the restricted outlet on those pipes.

They worked well enough, it won production races just about eveywhere it was entered. They got away with moving the whole engine/gearbox over because no one noticed!

Fast Eddie · Jun 12, 2020

TDFcc, you need to ring Norman, don’t expect him to get into a long email ping pong with you about it... ain’t gonna happen !

Fast Eddie · Jun 12, 2020

Bernhard said:
They worked well enough, it won production races just about eveywhere it was entered. They got away with moving the whole engine/gearbox over because no one noticed!

Agreed. I dyno’d bigger bore pipes, open megas, etc, etc on mine only to conclude that standard 1 3/8 downpipes with fluted peashooters out performed them all.

The only exception was the Maney / Brooking 850 2:1. But even that only out performed peashooters when long duration cams were used.

Having said all of that, a production racer from the day told me they used to cut open the pea shooters, turn the fluted baffle around, and re weld / re chrome them. Their logic being that would increase the flow of the peashooters! But they didn’t have access to a dyno to prove / disprove their theory.

Bernhard · Jun 12, 2020

Fast Eddie said:
Agreed. I dyno’d bigger bore pipes, open megas, etc, etc on mine only to conclude that standard 1 3/8 downpipes with fluted peashooters out performed them all.

The only exception was the Maney / Brooking 850 2:1. But even that only out performed peashooters when long duration cams were used.

Having said all of that, a production racer from the day told me they used to cut open the pea shooters, turn the fluted baffle around, and re weld / re chrome them. Their logic being that would increase the flow of the peashooters! But they didn’t have access to a dyno to prove / disprove their theory.

Only the lap times on the stopwatch.

SteveA · Jun 12, 2020

lcrken said:
That's how it looks to me, Steve. That is the last (1974) version of the PR, as far as I can tell, not counting the Thruxton Club Racer). I don't have any pictures of it being raced, but it does have Croxford's name on it. The few pictures I have of Peter Williams on the white JPN PR show it with the standard fairing, as in the second picture above.

And a little update. I checked, and Norton did not race under John Player sponsorship until 1972. In the earlier races the prototype PRs looked pretty much like the yellow one above, but were not always yellow. Once they started racing production PRs, they were all yellow, until '73 and '74, when you started to see the white ones.

This is a picture of Peter Williams on the white PR that shows a little bit of detail, like the ignition system, from Peter's book. I think it is from 1973.

View attachment 16922

Ken

In maybe '77 I bought a timing cover like that with Lucas Rita pick up and ignition box from Tony Smith at Brize Norton.

You can guess where it came from.

I fitted it to the original incarnation of my Rickman racer because I had had an Advance Retard Unit explode and damage the taper in the cam.....

The cam being stamped TX I wanted to retain it!

SteveA · Jun 12, 2020

lcrken said:
Raced in the Production class, so had to run stock silencers. Might have been gutted inside. I don't know what the specific rules were back then.

Ken

Specific rules were mostly broken!

When I production raced a standard 1970 Fastback my fellow racers had 33mm carbs fully flowed heads, high compression (and long kickstarts) and 4S cams...I could still beat some of them with standard compression and cam, 28mm ports 30mm carbs and a twin leading shoe brake....sometimes outbraking them because I simply could not stop quicker!

Most peashooters used had nothing in them....mine were as they came to me...and whistled on the overun...please remind me why I sold that bike!

Oh yeah!....it was to help fund racing the following year! And now it is lounging in someone's shed in the UK on an off road notice.

Norton Commando John Player Peter Williams replica build

Similar threads