Norton Commando John Player Peter Williams replica build

Were articals and componentry pictures in 72 Two Wheels ( Aus. ) magazine . Frame , duckting , G box SPROCKET ( for teef noumber ) etc etc . well worth a look,
think it was on the cover . This mag covered the J P N knortons , through the years . Mayve been Greene ?

72 had the Blue one on the cover , once.
Annoyed I didnt interogate READ on the Nortons , at the Aus. Sheene meeting a few years back . As ee rode em. And at daytona . Gotta 5th or suchlike .

EstuaryBoy said:

Searched the web as I recall dim and distant memories of US saloon car racers building slightly smaller versions of their cars (with the obvious weight advantage) which lead to vehicle templates being made by the scrutineers. Nothing out there in cyberville to back it up, but... a few naughty people here:

The Ten Most Ingenious Cheats In Automotive History

Amid the VW dieselgate shitshow we wondered about the other automotive cheaters who nearly got away. Thankfully, you, our readers gave us the answers. Why take the long way around when you could cheat your way through?

jalopnik.com

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In Australian historic car racing, we have Group N, which includes many 70s cars - Holdens, Fords etc. It is a lovely race class and really worth watching. One of the guys created a 1969 fast-back Mustang, which was in effect a modern V8 Supercar. Everything under it's exterior was modern - suspension, motor, gearbox were all current racing bits.. When you watched it, it performed like a modern car, extremely fast and beautiful. The other guys got the hump, so he went home and built another one which complied with the rules - it was still fast - only slightly slower. I like watching Group N car racing and I can't tell a motor car from a horse and cart. So what's under the bonnet does not matter to me. Historic racing is bullshit, it is for guys who don't really want to race - just look good on a motorbike. Our Seniors' meetings are more genuine. You can ride anything as long as the total age of bike and rider is over 90 years. And even that rule gets disregarded.

Unfortunately there is often a difference between a motorcycle being eligible for historic racing and being authentic. My Seeley 850 is what they were back when, so the race organisers can get stuffed. If they complain, they don't want my entry and I don't need them. The last time I raced, I got ahead of all the fast guys at turn two in the Period 4 race at Winton, before I had a minor problem which stopped the motor. If it had kept going, they never would have got back in front of me. That proved the bike - the main purpose of the exercise. So now I don't know if I really care. I might race again or I might not. My bike is not a cheater. It has been built to function and it could not have been built to be different to what it is. I am just amazed that it is so good, because I never believed in Commandos when I built it.

How could anyone build a motorcycle with a crankshaft like that in a Commando and be serious ? What amazes me is that it actually works and works very well.

Yep , this old stuffs to slow ,



Why , that norton only did 155 . now why would you bother .

You should try a modern superbike , that even the aces cant ride competantly the entire time .
So the average rider should manadge with total incompetance.

Which sorta descibes most atempts on the olde pacific highway here . Used to be the main road , a old Holden on crossplys could manadge it pretty well .
A push bike , down hill , would manadge the speed limit these days. Easilly .

Back on . . . Id think the ' Lowboy ' Frame might be a better option , for a ' open ' classic racer .
p.s. theres a wideo of Tri 650 Vs modern jap 250 on you tube , the Triumph , standardish , is running away , through the bends . WHOD of thought ! .



The 33 bored carbs , on the 750 , was the trick . otherwise the engine was mostly ' off the shelf ' . Very Carefully assembled .
32 Mk IIs'll flow as well . Custom Tube Intakes can offer superior flow / blending - ram effect . Rather than kinked ones .

Id cant the engine forward . Its patented even . Steve Lancefield .

Likely a more predictable ' drifter ' than the 72 F-750 ? . Williams & Rayborn using the tecnique on the triangular Dunlops to win Trans Atlantic Match Races.
On the Twisty Circuits . Vs Sheen on TR 750 etc !!!!!!!!!!!!!

The only modern bike I've ridden was a VFR400 Honda. It was excellent, but it was speed limited to 180 KPH. Any motorcycle is excellent if it has been developed in conjunction with an excellent rider. John Surtees built a 7R AJS using his own frame. The guys who have used that bike say it is a real gem. This is a thing that many guys are not aware of - theoretically, the bike with the most powerful motor must win ,- however in practice it is the complete package, including the rider. But a good bike creates a good rider and vice versa. The best riders provide feedback to their mechanics. Apparently Hailwood was not very good at that. He started with a well-developed Mondial. In the old days, If you were starting at road racing and were fair dinkum - the best thing you could do was to buy a Manx. Playing with shit-heaps is stupidity. You just learn how to cope with bad motorcycles.

When you use Dunlop Triangulars, the transition from vertical to lean is not as smooth as it is with normal tyres. That is a disadvantage - you might have more rubber on the road when you are at full lean, but if you are not smooth getting to full lean, it is easier to crash. Have you seen Bob McIntrye on the Manx at Oulton Park in 'The Right Line' ? It is the second part of the video I've posted. McIntyre was killed at Oulton Park.

ARGH ,
But if you FLIOCK it to full lean , Youve got more rubber on the road than ' others ' ,

AND


If a Loging Truck is in the blind bend on the hill a 5 mph and your at 60 ,
you can throw out all the anchor required , while cranked over .

On a dry day.At least .

More nervous upright , the LOW DRAG narrow contact patch that allows a higher to speed is narrow, and the RACE carcase ( on the Front KR 76s ) is vastly tougher
( than a K 81 ) Though there were K 81 R 4.25 18s , around 1980 . For gold wings in death valley at the ton . These were a bit stiffer too .



The Compounds originally had a higher coefficent of friction at 2 - 5 % slip , than at zero slip , So generated MORE traction IN A DRIFT . Than otherwise .

When I used Dunlop Triangular tyres, I ran them at 22 pounds pressure. I run my Bridgestone Battlax tyres at 32 pounds. I am never tyre-dependent because I was brought up using that OLD CRAP. If it rains, I race faster, because the other guys will try to stay with me and cannot. That way I don't have to out-run them down the straights. A lot has to do with steering geometry. If your bike stays more vertical in corners, you don't put so much sideways pressure on the tyres. My bike is ridiculous - it wheel-spins out of the hairpin corner at Winton with a chance of doing a high-side, because it stays more upright. It is all about the trail - more is better.

About that photo of the featherbed Norton Twin. The reason we ever raced Tritons was because we could not afford Manxes. The theory that the best motor in the best frame makes the best bike - is bullshit. The featherbed frame was designed to carry the Manx engine. The only other motor which is really OK in a Featherbed frame is the two-valve Jawa speedway engine. With a Triton, the motor has to be as far forward as possible and even then, that is not far enough to get the weight distribution right. You'll get neutral handling, but the bike will never be as positive in it's handling as a genuine Manx.
Riding a Triton or Domiracer as fast as a Manx is a very delicate operation. That airey feeling is not nice.

The light and airey feeling didnt bother it , against 1100 Katanas & TZ 350s . Tho was a home cobbled version with 68 Tri swing arm & alloy T 100R .
Past a methanol burning 750 dunger , on the long circuit , & left the faired TZ 350s on the short circuit . Pukecoee.

Drifted power steered nicely two up on gravel , which was a bit of a surpise . Was built round 4 inch trail setting ( the ' std . ' for the KR76).

Occasionally youd have to lock great hairey arms , or think you had to, at least . Way in over your head .
With the cylider bores about parrallel to the front downtoobs , she might not lift as much .
I had preogressive rate springs , F & R . 70 Commando guard'd tap & ding steering damper under triple clamp. In extremeous .

Swing Arm & Shocks were ( GOOD ) 68 Bonneville, with non Q D solid rear axel fitted to Tri Conical hub ( Manx Dimn's . ) Spacer bored to Std. bearin I.D.
Footrests directly above swing arm pin .So - weight off the seat - your boots directed the drive assembly . T T 100 ( and the rest ) were real light .

Still have the frame Drg. Would use the same geometry on a 100 horse twin cam 4 valve one litre. If anyones got a spare late massey furguson ( Er Hardley Ableson )
Transmission spare . The one that bolts at the front face , like the ' semi unit ' BBSA plunger & ridgid A 10 . So There . ! NOW you KNOW . !

My frame was ex butchered Commando ( Vs Mercedes . Ouch ) So mONE INCH Frame Loop ( & 3/4 seat rails with 5/8 seat loop - replaceable Via grinder & weld )
Intended to replace with the 1 1/4 TRIUMPH oil tube frame size tubing . Like Rickmans & Seelys Used !
THIS is tghe Advantage over the 72 F -750 works frame . Its still pansey Commando tube diameters . Tho likely chrome molly - so less inclined to twist .

I dont think theres many that have used a Commando in anger that would say the frame was entirely dimesionally stable . unfortunately .

To quote P. Williams poisonally . Regarding the Commando P.R. & the monococque ' Steering ' around the I.o.M. ,
" Oh No ., The F - 750 was another thing altogether . " I think ' They wernt at all alike ' ( Regarding the piloting ) I think , was the following remark .
Poisonally in posison; whent it was what I asked him poisonally , in his deck chair by the shadey tree .

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Just tripped over a 1978 Norman white ace spannerman artical .


Motorcycling Monthly . May 78 . Havnt read it . Appears to be RCB Hondas . Which were hyperbuck attempts at world domination .And not to bad, for Hondas .

o.k. , it specifically mentions the Blue 72 Daytona Nortons ! .

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This Bloke didnt hang around, either . Should be good for a unbiased appraisal of the device .



Were mutterings the drag from the dual exhaust up there cost 5 mph or more . Which is why it was superceded .

Couple more .



https://www.mortonsarchive.com/p/mortons-archive/11083349002/mortons-archive-mortons-media-group someone elses photo , on a photo site . No Purloining . Bar money .

grandpaul said:

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This pretty much sums it up. Thx!

I will make better effort in getting hold of Norman White, this is clear from the thread.
Thank you all for your input, true to the original post or not.

KR
Anton

I love the way some people would like to censor the direction which threads might take. Thinking in only one dimension is not my go. If you do that, you go backwards. I am here to learn.
My opinion is that any motorcycle which has Commando engine, is a piece of shit - I love mine. My mates get upset when I refer to my Seeley 850 as a 'shit-heap' - but that is what it is - a fast shit heap.
If you ride such a motorcycle, you cannot be serious. Have a look at a Paton 500 or an MV 3 or any Ducati. A Manx in the Landsdowne race series would be much better.

I love the way some people would like to censor the direction which threads might take.
I know which way they are going lol!

I just believe it would be nice to let TDF get back to his build now...

Matt Spencer said:

Couple more .

https://www.mortonsarchive.com/p/mortons-archive/11083349002/mortons-archive-mortons-media-group someone elses photo , on a photo site . No Purloining . Bar money .

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That thing about drag caused by the exhausts might actually have some sense to it. There is a fairing which was used in Australia which covers the hands. Also PW made a frame which had his feet closer together. It is amazing how much further you roll when you shut the throttle at speed, if you compare a faired bike to the same bike without the fairing.

Bernhard said:

The right???? I thought they moved it to the left so it was quicker round B Hatch?

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From the horses mouth

Peter Pyket and I fabricated the right hand exit pipes and corresponding revised side plates and exhaust hangers. We also raised the front frame lugs 3/8, rotating the sub assembly around the rear isolastic through stud"and shifted the complete sub assembly of the bike to the right 3/8". We also made a chamfer to the chaincase generator bulge. The excercise was to make extra ground clearance when cornering.