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Yes, but which one??
Norton 961 Commando a keeper?
- Thread starter BikerBore
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Yes, but which one??
Hi Eddie,
I beg to disagree with your first statement. Location of peak torque determines the riding style to a high degree. So, having peak torque at 6000 rpm aspires the rider to rev the bike out. If the max torque was at say 4500 rpm, with a declining curve thereafter, there would be no increase in acceleration after 4500 rpm and therefore no practical need to rev further (in lower gears at least).
Your second line says, simply put, any torque curve is possible, which isn't very helpful. Even if a modern engine (hopefully) produces lots of torque at 3000 rpm, it takes some restraint to subside while acceleration still rises. Few riders will do that, IMHO.
Again, apologies for the non-Norton content.
-Knut
PS. To bring this exchange down-to-earth, the FTR torque diagram is shown here. It looks unbelievably flat.
https://www.cycleworld.com/how-much-power-does-2019-indian-ftr1200s-make/
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Fast Eddie
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Not sure if we disagree or are just talking at cross purposes.
All I’m saying is that the bike with the highest average available torque, goes fastest. Period.
And that’s basically irrespective of where in the rpm range the ‘peak’ is.
Look at a Harley (especially older ones) LOADS of torque at VERY LOW rpm, but that’s all. So, fast off the line and for a few metres, but that’s it.
By "fastest" you probably mean, accelerate the fastest.
By the laws of physics it's pretty simple to show that maximum speed is governed by maximum power, not torque. Of course you need to get to that peak, so I am assuming the torque curve allows you to accelerate towards that peak.
-Knut
Fast Eddie
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As you say, maximum power is required for maximum speed. But this applies in every gear, therefore power = acceleration.
I believe that for maximum performance a bike needs a ‘high average torque’ over a rev range that overlaps with the power curve. Then, as you said, the torque carries you through to the power.
So a race or sports bike puts less emphasis on low rpm torque because once rolling, it’s really far less relevant, so long as the gearbox is suitably spaced to keep the revs in the power band.
Touring is different of course, there you want an engine that will allow brisk acceleration from a relaxed cruise, ideally without having to change down more than one gear (or not at all).
One of my bikes is incredibly torquey and there is little need to use any more than 3/4 of the safe revs to make rapid progress. It’s a delight to ride, but there’s no denying the fact that if it had more power, it would make even more rapid progress !
I believe that for maximum performance a bike needs a ‘high average torque’ over a rev range that overlaps with the power curve. Then, as you said, the torque carries you through to the power.
So a race or sports bike puts less emphasis on low rpm torque because once rolling, it’s really far less relevant, so long as the gearbox is suitably spaced to keep the revs in the power band.
Touring is different of course, there you want an engine that will allow brisk acceleration from a relaxed cruise, ideally without having to change down more than one gear (or not at all).
One of my bikes is incredibly torquey and there is little need to use any more than 3/4 of the safe revs to make rapid progress. It’s a delight to ride, but there’s no denying the fact that if it had more power, it would make even more rapid progress !
However it's set up I'm impressed with my 961, so far so good. Pulls away OK and once rolling squirts on, scoots well through the gears, cruises comfortably and passes effortlessly. Still running in but doubt I'll ever be exceeding 5500 revs, unless the horns grow back .
ntst8
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Pretty much a me too, the only change i would make is to re-profile the gear and foot brake levels to tuck them in closer to the engine cases. Minor niggle though.
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If you have the decat exaust/tune then the bike is a different beast altogether in the 5k - 6.5k rpm range, she loves it up there, smooth as silk and the sound is like a flock of banshees
Quite getting to like the std pipe setup, exhaust sound is rorty and you can still hear the induction roar. Roll on the summer and a few more revs .If you have the decat exaust/tune then the bike is a different beast altogether in the 5k - 6.5k rpm range, she loves it up there, smooth as silk and the sound is like a flock of banshees
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Speed is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you go through it!
BritTwit
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Speed also determines how large the splatter pattern is.
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Hit it fast enough and you just smash a hole?
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Today was going to be a special day, I had an excellent excuse for a 50 mile run, my CR was gleaming, chain lubed, everything given a once over and battery fully charged. Showers were forecast but I threw caution to the wind and rolled the 961 out of the barn followed by the usual 9-point push/turn to get her facing the right way. Key in ignition, lights on, fuel pump primed, hit the starter, lots of healthy cranking but no fire, nada. Checked the usual, lots of cranking but still no fire. Eventually battery gave up. 9-point push/turn to get her back in the barn. Rolled out Indian, 2-point push/turn and fired her up. I was miffed that I was't going to have the pleasure of the 961 for company. Feeling a little better for the run but still miffed.
I am mentally prepared for the odd mechanical fault to develop but not prepared for the hit'n'miss reliability caused by electrical gremlins. There was absolutely no reason for it to refuse to start today, it started fine just a few days back. If today had been one of those days in the calendar that I had been looking forward to for a year then I would have been a little more than just miffed, or worse, I could have arrived at destination THEN she refuses to get me home!
961 gets sold at the 1st opportunity, love affair over.
I am mentally prepared for the odd mechanical fault to develop but not prepared for the hit'n'miss reliability caused by electrical gremlins. There was absolutely no reason for it to refuse to start today, it started fine just a few days back. If today had been one of those days in the calendar that I had been looking forward to for a year then I would have been a little more than just miffed, or worse, I could have arrived at destination THEN she refuses to get me home!
961 gets sold at the 1st opportunity, love affair over.
BritTwit
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Cool off first.
Can't you just consider it a lover's spat.
Make-up sex is always more fun.
Fast Eddie
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Deep breaths Mark... deep breaths...
Probably got a tank full of stale fuel which didn’t help, then simply flooded?
Even I would give it another chance...
Fast Eddie
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You wear make-up for that...?
BritTwit
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She started fine at the weekend, same petrol. All I did was park her up and put on trickle charge. Battery is back on charge, I will try again later but I have a feeling it will be tank and seat cowl off then hours of unplugging and checking, hours scrolling through this forum to locate common/frequent issues, lots of hair pulling, ordering unnecessary spare relays and other sensors 'just in case', only to find that my ecu has given up the ghost. I'm even more miffed 'cos today I put road tax on her for 6mth!
Fast Eddie
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Character...?
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Character? Yeah, too much of it!
I just checked in the garage and Optimate says battery was charged (yes Optimate, I put the Yuasa back on thinking I might as well get some use out of it rather than age on the shelf, the Lithium will keep forever so they say). I unlocked the petrol cap just in case I had an air lock from refitting the plastic tank, no hiss. Ignition on, stabbed the starter but nothing, waited a couple of secs, stabbed again and the motor felt like it was cranking faster this time, she fired up so I just let her warm up to normal idle. I will check everything over the weekend but at moment chalking this up as just 'one of those things'.
Character.... not really, just an expensive p.o.s
I'm still seriously thinking of moving on.Similar threads
