New member hello and AAARRRGH!!!

As a diagnostic tool, Give it a whiff of ether, if it fires a couple times, you might want to look at carburetion instead of spark. If sleeping medicine gives you pause, a half teaspoon of gas in the sparkplug holes is almost as good.

wd40, brake or carb cleaner spray work as well too. When the plugs snaps both valves should be fully closed on one jug or the other. If fires up a time or 2 or spits like it might, bump timing a tiny amount retard of adv. to see if makes better or nothing, then try the other way til full range tried to know that ain't the easy issue. Of course you must carry the additional depression of knowing every kick over on dry cam and lifters is just that much sooner to go in deep again, ugh.

For one thing you must learn what all the wires do and attach to but can't hurt nothing just flipping the trigger leads if nothing else left before shooting it or your self.

kromatid750 said:

After my post regarding position of back plate hole in window, the timing was redone. I may have made a mistake before, in either observation of position or setting the timing, but it is now exactly as shown in manual. And yes, the other hole would be just to the right of the pick-up and not directly under it as I imprecisely said. There are no clockwise/anticlockwise methods with this unit ; there is just one way to set it up - it does have to be turned in opposite directions at different times, but my stupidity does not stretch that far (I hope!).

I recognise the throttle techniques described from my old Commando - I think I have tried just about everything in that department.

Tried the starting ritual again today. This time it seemed to nearly catch two or three times, but just ended up spitting back through the carbs - reminiscent of a Triumph Speed Twin that I did set the timing 180 degrees out on when I was 19 and had only ever ridden a scooter. Mind, that was an awful lot easier to kick over!

Could it be clutching at straws to think it may be an incorrectly wired black box? I don't know which wires of the four to swap over (ANYBODY?), or I could deliberately set the unit on the wrong timing mark???!!!

Thank you all for your responses. Bob

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Hi Bob
I realise it must be very frustrating, but don't lose heart we have all been where you are at some point :?
Am I right in saying originally when trying to start it, it was kicking back, and now (above, after adjustment) you state it is spitting/backfiring through the carbs?
Some checks:
Are you still running positive earth?
Is the coil correctly wired + / - terminals?
are all the earths to the pazon box etc in place?
Have you got a good earth to the engine?

The next thing I would do is to get a good idea that the plugs are sparking at TDC on the firing stroke.
Take both plugs out and and connect them to the leads and place them on the cylinder head near the plug holes, kick over with ignition on and see if the spark corresponds with compression (the air chuffing out the plug hole)

I am still convinced it is timing as it kicks back/spits back and therefore it is sparking and getting enough fuel to at least fire if the spark is in the right place.
I once had a Lucas Rita ignition with a fault, that did not spark where it should and it took me ages to find the fault until I did the above test and noted the discrepancy. So please do not think I am suggesting you have not timed it correctly.
Cheers
JohnT

Hi JohnT,

I too feel it must be timing but am getting to the stage of little or nothing left to try and worried about the detrimental effects of too much kicking on an engine not yet started, let alone run-in - I haven't kicked it over again and again and again, but you know what I mean.

Present position - donned my biker boots yesterday for ankle/sole protection, tried again for two or three minutes, spit-back through carbs. Got a couple of pensioners to try to push me on the flat, even bigger spit-back through the carbs. Still no joy.

Tried using 'Cold Start' (a volatile, like ether) a couple of days ago and felt the burning vapour as it was expelled from the carbs over my hand holding the frame loop.

To address your questions/advice:

Yes, spitting through carbs mainly. Have not felt the mule-like kick-back of my first effort.

Wiring is now negative earth and Pazon wired as the neg earth diagram in the manual. Just remembered something, let me go and try.....

OK. I have just tested the spark with a tester - a Gunsons thing that shows how far the spark will leap. It showed normal operation, with the spark jumping 15mm, so the right HT voltage seems to be being produced; the blurb on the tool suggests at least 20kV. I doubt this is accurate, but the spark being capable of the 15mm gap is surely significant, even if not in the cylinder head environment.

All main earths go to the redundant head steady fixing point, powder coating removed from all jointing faces, head and headlight earthed to same point. Pazon case, earthed directly to the battery, black wire to the frame.

The compression stroke/spark test has been done a number of times and is always there or there abouts, i.e. never far from TDC at the time of the spark. Obviously, impossible to be precise, but the spark must be somewhere near the right place BUT maybe not the exact right place????? Could a degree be enough to stop it starting?

The only thing that seems open to me now, is to retard/advance the ignition and see what happens.

Maybe an email to Pazon?

Thanks for your persistance, Bob

If you have a way to try another or different EI, I'd do that. Even if it's the AAU.

Dave
69S

DogT said:

If you have a way to try another or different EI, I'd do that. Even if it's the AAU.

Dave
69S

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Exactly what I would like to do, but the bike was a basket case originally and came with no ignition bits. I don't have a spare and none to be borrowed where I am in rural France.

Bob

Just a bit of straw clutching while I think about it:

There is a possibility that the primary cover on my bike is not original. Any chance the degree marker can be different on newer/older models?

Bob

Not sure about the marker fitted to the primary and how accurate it is, mines is not too far out. I take it you don't have a timing disc then, maybe you could make one up and mark off the 31Deg mark, find TDC with the screwdriver down the plug hole trick and see how your set up compares, you would know then if it your timing was way out!

You can actually scratch the TDC and 30° BTDC right on the stator. With all the time you've spent on this it may be time to make sure of the timing marks using a degree wheel. (you do have the Woodruff key in the rotor?) My bet is a timing issue, unless it's a carb problem, but it doesn't sound like it with the ether. Be careful with that stuff, you can blow holes in pistons according to my JD tractor book.

Dave
69S

kromatid750 said:

Just a bit of straw clutching while I think about it:

There is a possibility that the primary cover on my bike is not original. Any chance the degree marker can be different on newer/older models?

Bob

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Hi Bob
well, how about getting the right cylinder on the compression stroke (put your finger over the plug hole! then with a small screw driver in the plug hole (very carefully) gently nudge the engine over until approx. TDC and then have a look where the hole in the rotor is. Should be on or close to the pickup (between the led and the connection block)
If it isn't then you got the problem.
Cheers
JohnT

If you checked your valve position then you probably have a degree wheel and a piston stop. If not, how did you determine TDC for this purpose.
The point here is, if you can obtain TDC you can scratch/scribe a line on the stator at the line of the rotor. You can also make a mark in relationship to 28 or 31 BTDC. You will know you have an accurate point to see if your marker plate is right.

Hi All,

I don't have a timing disc, but can ascertain TDC with good accuracy using a gauge that screws into the spark plug hole.

I may make or see if I can find a timing disc tomorrow, but I think worries about the accuracy of the chaincase scale is clutching at straws, as I said. I can't imagine that the timing being a tiny bit out would stop the engine getting somewhere near running at the very least. However, I will check.

JohnT - Have done all this, probably three or four times, along with quadruple goes at retiming and the trigger plate ends up in the same place each time, lining up exactly with marker pen dots I have made. Although this Norton is new to me, I had owned a Commando for 20 years and serviced it throughout that time; starting off with points, then Rita and ending up with a Boyer. I make no claims to be an expert, but I do have a basic competence - this of course does not stop me from the odd stupid mistake. However, unless there is some underlying significant problem affecting things, I don't think it is the physical setting of the timing causing the non-starting. This is not to say the ignition system is working properly! I have never been so disappointed at finding nothing wrong with a machine!!!

I have had lots of ideas from this forum to try and have had a few myself, but everything I've done so far has simply tended towards confirming that all is set-up correctly - even though something must be not right. I won't give up, but am presently bereft of ideas.

Cheers, Bob

kromatid750 said:

Hi All,

I don't have a timing disc, but can ascertain TDC with good accuracy using a gauge that screws into the spark plug hole.

I may make or see if I can find a timing disc tomorrow, but I think worries about the accuracy of the chaincase scale is clutching at straws, as I said. I can't imagine that the timing being a tiny bit out would stop the engine getting somewhere near running at the very least. However, I will check.


Cheers, Bob

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That is not accurate because the arch last too many degrees and any guess is just that, a guess. As mentioned in an earlier post, a few degrees either way will have a profound effect. Profound!
A degree wheel can be printed off the web, cut out and pasted to a piece of cardboard. Use a piece of dowel or the like to put through the center that will fit snug into the hollow part if the rotor nut. Take a blob of clay or something and stick it anywhere to hold a piece of wire as a pointer. This is all that is needed to get an "accurate" reading.

He needs to PM hobot and get the best AAU he's got and give it a shot. Those things would work no matter what.

Actually, I think it's about time for a new EI, but who wants to throw money at that? Hasn't someone got a spare to send him? It could still be some stupid wiring problem or coil issue, but the spark doesn't say that. He's got to do something before he breaks the KS or pawl. These things should just start right up. I always think if I try 3 times and no start, something is wrong. Last time I thought that it was an internal wire came off one of the coils. Can you believe it?

Fire in the hole.

Dave

You've probably done this already but, what's the status of the battery? Voltmeter check with no load then a check with lights on?

Edit: Voltage at the EI unit? All of the connections/switches/buttons can cause a loss of voltage.

http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Ignition/Sidebar.htm

Hi

Was the bike rewired during the rebuild? Using a power box? would it be possible to post a sketch/schematic of the wiring you now have re the ignion system, charging, battery?

What are some of your residual electronics?
You say you have a 3 phase unit so I assume that you have a sparks 3 phase reg/rec unit eliminating the stock reg/rec and the zener.
What about the coils, stock or a single dual output unit?
Are you still using the "blue can" assimilator and capacitor?
How are your grounding points? Are their enough and are they robust?

The point here is that if you have the good charging system and EI ignition, don't let this other clutter get in the way of clean system. I feel safe in assuming that originality is "not" on your top ten.

Sorry if I seem to keep hammering but things keep popping up in my head as I reread through this thread.

To reiterate, this bike has never run. Correct?
New engine components and totally rewired.
A somewhat obscure fuel delivery system being a single Keihin flatside pumper? That is fine, yet still untested. I successfully run a 40mm Mik pumper myself.
Are your plug getting wet? Do you smell gas and are afraid to light a match? How bright is your spark?

It is possible that nothing is wrong and you just need the right formula, fuel mixture, spark, timing.

Hello All,

Sorry to have taken my time in getting back to you - recovering from a St Patrick's dinner at a local village hall and then started straight back on the bike.

As I said, I was pretty happy that the timing procedure had been carried out accurately, but felt there must be some underlying problem that made my efforts irrelevant. How true!

As planned, I made up a timing disc, did the 31 degrees BTDC thing and the problem was all too obvious and a real surprise!!! It was something I had thought about, but dismissed as just too desperate an idea. The markings on the alternator rotor were in the wrong place, putting the timing miles out. In fact my suspicions were first raised by having the feeling that I seemed to be turning the engine further back than expected for 31 degrees, but thought I was being paranoid and couldn't believe the rotor would be wrongly marked.

I can only thank those who were pushing me to use a timing disc - not something I have ever needed to use, as I have always been able to set timing manually on the various vehicles I have owned, using a scale or mark, and then checked with a strobe. Anyway, it was the use of a timing disc that solved the puzzle.

I pushed the bike out into the yard about half an hour ago and, of course, it started first kick. I ran it for about 8 minutes, until the exhaust nuts started to come loose, and shut it off for its 24 hour cool down. First impressions were very good - lovely sound (a bit different to my memory, but probably because of the Keihins), oil return came on stream quickly and response to the throttle seemed very sharp.

Next job is to sort out a small electrical glitch, and then do retorqueing, etc.

Thank you again to everyone who has cogitated upon this problem - as usual, something simple, even if highly unlikely. Maybe I should have paid more attention to Sherlock Holmes!

Cheers all, Bob

kromatid750 said:

I pushed the bike out into the yard about half an hour ago and, of course, it started first kick. I ran it for about 8 minutes, until the exhaust nuts started to come loose, and shut it off for its 24 hour cool down.
Cheers all, Bob

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Tighten up the exhaust nut while the engine is still hot, preferably running.

Could you share what you found regarding the alternator markings?