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L.A.B. said:
When at 31 degrees BTDC, the rotor hole is just to the right of centre of the inspection window.
New member hello and AAARRRGH!!!
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When at 31 degrees BTDC, the rotor hole is just to the right of centre of the inspection window.
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probably a dumb question but surely you can verify you are getting a spark from holding the plugs against the head while an assistant rotates the rear wheel in fourth gear until the pazon shows it is at the 31 degree mark? both plugs removed from head but connected to their leads and grounded on head of course
how you done this and what was the result
that is how I have always verified electronic ignitions initial timing and then a strobe light when motor started
how you done this and what was the result
that is how I have always verified electronic ignitions initial timing and then a strobe light when motor started
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Could you please confirm the actual Pazon ignition type, as it seems we are dealing with a Smart Fire and not Sure Fire as you said originally?
With the crankshaft set to 31 deg BTDC as far as I'm aware for Smart fire, the rotor slot [Edit should line up with the sensor as shown for anticlockwise rotation Fig 5, 6 & 7]
kromatid750 said:
With the crankshaft set to 31 deg BTDC as far as I'm aware for Smart fire, the rotor slot [Edit should line up with the sensor as shown for anticlockwise rotation Fig 5, 6 & 7]
Man o man, that's a lot of stuff to bring together all at once and start on the first kick but it has been done.
What is you cam. There is a "farmer in the field" type method of checking it's position that is darn accurate by looking into the axhaust port at TDC. I did this on mine when I got a new cam from JS.
At TDC look into the exhaust port that is on the exhaust stroke. The position of the valves will be be close to equal and ideally the intake will be about .020" more open. With a good pointer on the degree wheel, you can move in 5 degree incrament to see if you need to adjust the cam.
Although it is hard to see in the picture, the intake is ever so slightly more open. Equally open would be ok also.
If you move the crank 5 degrees in either direction on the degree wheel, the change is profound. Even a 2 degree change that can be obtained by filing a key will be noticed by looking in exhaust port.
FWIW I advanced my cam 15 degrees to bring it home.
What is you cam. There is a "farmer in the field" type method of checking it's position that is darn accurate by looking into the axhaust port at TDC. I did this on mine when I got a new cam from JS.
At TDC look into the exhaust port that is on the exhaust stroke. The position of the valves will be be close to equal and ideally the intake will be about .020" more open. With a good pointer on the degree wheel, you can move in 5 degree incrament to see if you need to adjust the cam.
Although it is hard to see in the picture, the intake is ever so slightly more open. Equally open would be ok also.
If you move the crank 5 degrees in either direction on the degree wheel, the change is profound. Even a 2 degree change that can be obtained by filing a key will be noticed by looking in exhaust port.
FWIW I advanced my cam 15 degrees to bring it home.
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It's getting late and some wine has been drunk, but I will try to address the responses that I am grateful to have had.
Firstly, I made an error (now corrected) - I have a Smartfire and not a Surefire'
I am getting a spark and fuel. I will double check the timing of the spark.
My Smartfire may be an earlier version than that of JohnT's. The manual you gave a link for shows a barrel with slots for the rotor, mine is a plate with two holes at 180 degrees to each other and it sits behind the trigger plate; but I do now see where the clockwise/anti-clockwise questions came from.
Thanks pvisseriii, I will have a look at that in the morning.
L.A.B. - don't know. Definitely has four wires. There are two holes in the rotor, so maybe 180 degrees; the system type is designated PD2B.
Judging by most responses, ignition timing seems to be the favoured culprit. Any other possibilities?
Anyhow, I will triple check everything tomorrow, give it a go (I have just about recovered from yesterday's efforts, but think I may put some boots on) and report back.
Thank you all, Bob
Firstly, I made an error (now corrected) - I have a Smartfire and not a Surefire'
I am getting a spark and fuel. I will double check the timing of the spark.
My Smartfire may be an earlier version than that of JohnT's. The manual you gave a link for shows a barrel with slots for the rotor, mine is a plate with two holes at 180 degrees to each other and it sits behind the trigger plate; but I do now see where the clockwise/anti-clockwise questions came from.
Thanks pvisseriii, I will have a look at that in the morning.
L.A.B. - don't know. Definitely has four wires. There are two holes in the rotor, so maybe 180 degrees; the system type is designated PD2B.
Judging by most responses, ignition timing seems to be the favoured culprit. Any other possibilities?
Anyhow, I will triple check everything tomorrow, give it a go (I have just about recovered from yesterday's efforts, but think I may put some boots on) and report back.
Thank you all, Bob
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kromatid750 said:
OK. Disregard the "two holes" and "reversed wires" info. as it's an old version Smart-Fire and not Sure-Fire as we first thought, and that has caused some confusion. Unfortunately, the instructions for that old unit are not available on the Pazon website. I can only suggest you read through your own Pazon instructions regarding rotor positioning once again, as I think you may have the rotor positioned incorrectly.
Is this the rotor (old Smart Fire type)?
http://www.pazon.com/ignition-system/sm ... -twin.html
rpatton's suggestion about making sure you are using the correct BTDC alternator timing mark is certainly worth checking.
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Yes, the illustration is of my rotor type.
BTDC was set by rotating the engine forwards using the back wheel until TDC was found and then ascertained using a gauge down the spark plug hole. I then used the wheel to turn the alternator rotor back to just beyond the BTDC mark and then moved forwards to the mark. The Pazon timing disc was then inserted as per the Pazon manual and the rest of the set-up procedure followed. All lights turned on and off as required, and the timing disc hole ended up about where it should. Pazon use a wasted spark system.
As long as BTDC is found fairly accurately, I can't see much room for error with the rest of the Pazon setting-up procedure - the timing disc location is clear and obvious (top hole at around 1 'O' clock) and the trigger plate set-up could not be done unless it was in the correct position in the first place.
However, the starter kickback does seem to suggest incorrect ignition timing. I am just starting on the bike for the day and will report back later.
Bob
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OK, so this what I have done this morning:
Using the pviseriii method, checked valve position at TDC - all good.
Reviewed my fitment of timing chain - exactly as stated in the Haynes manual. I wrote a note at the time, as I thought the description in the factory manual was unclear. However, my fitment exactly matches the photograph in the Haynes.
Made sure that there is minimal clearance on all vaves of 0.0015mm - it should be zero.
Checked the timing of actual spark. Impossible to stop manual engine rotation at precise point of spark, but a couple of nudges back brought the mark on the rotor to the scale in the chaincase. When moved to 31 degrees BTDC, the pick-up on the Pazon trigger plate is over one of the holes of the Pazon timing disc - wasted spark system, so impossible to get timing 180 degrees out.
Checked that the Keihin carb sliders were sliding. They do.
The fuel is fresh and the motor turns over freely and sweetly with the plugs removed. The resistance felt on the kick-start is as significant as may be expected with the plugs inserted.
Next step is to put the tank back on and have another go at starting the beast. If no joy, I am at a loss - push start?
Sooo....... As everything seems to be as it should (I have changed nothing), could it be something as stupid as my operation of the throttle? It is fairly warm here, so I have given just one twist on the accelerator pump and tried kicking it with no throttle, with just a touch and with a good handful, as I used on my old Commando with Amals. Plugs were cleaned and warmed between each session. I have no prior experience of Keihin carbs on a Commando.
As before, any input would be much appreciated.
Bob
Using the pviseriii method, checked valve position at TDC - all good.
Reviewed my fitment of timing chain - exactly as stated in the Haynes manual. I wrote a note at the time, as I thought the description in the factory manual was unclear. However, my fitment exactly matches the photograph in the Haynes.
Made sure that there is minimal clearance on all vaves of 0.0015mm - it should be zero.
Checked the timing of actual spark. Impossible to stop manual engine rotation at precise point of spark, but a couple of nudges back brought the mark on the rotor to the scale in the chaincase. When moved to 31 degrees BTDC, the pick-up on the Pazon trigger plate is over one of the holes of the Pazon timing disc - wasted spark system, so impossible to get timing 180 degrees out.
Checked that the Keihin carb sliders were sliding. They do.
The fuel is fresh and the motor turns over freely and sweetly with the plugs removed. The resistance felt on the kick-start is as significant as may be expected with the plugs inserted.
Next step is to put the tank back on and have another go at starting the beast. If no joy, I am at a loss - push start?
Sooo....... As everything seems to be as it should (I have changed nothing), could it be something as stupid as my operation of the throttle? It is fairly warm here, so I have given just one twist on the accelerator pump and tried kicking it with no throttle, with just a touch and with a good handful, as I used on my old Commando with Amals. Plugs were cleaned and warmed between each session. I have no prior experience of Keihin carbs on a Commando.
As before, any input would be much appreciated.
Bob
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kromatid750 said:
Depends if you are referring to crankshaft degrees or camshaft degrees, as it is certainly possible to set the timing "180 degrees out" on a 360 degree 4 stroke vertical twin if the wrong alternator rotor timing mark is used, as a wasted spark system fires once every 360 crankshaft degrees, however as long as the pistons are close to TDC (31 degrees BTDC) then the ignition is probably set correctly.
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I managed to find the Pazon PD2B instructions.
http://www.pazon.com/files/PDF/PD2B.pdf
You said previously, that:
Which doesn't match the final hole position as shown in the instructions, and might suggest the timing may not be quite right?
http://www.pazon.com/files/PDF/PD2B.pdf
You said previously, that:
kromatid750 said:
Which doesn't match the final hole position as shown in the instructions, and might suggest the timing may not be quite right?
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There have been a few instances the cam end fitting is off enough the magnet swing don't induce a spark or sparks at the wrong time. A heavy prime is what cold Commandos require and first few kicks best done with closed throttle to draw up fuel better but a cracked throttle after first few kicks does let engine kick over faster so that's what I do if no fire on 1st couple of kicks fail. If I flood mine then i hold WOT throttle for a few more kicks, which usually gets er done. Its possible trigger leads reversed which shows up as spit backs w/o running. After 1st start up mie only need to step once on Kicker w/o any throttle opening for most chance of one step ignition. Some electro sparkers need a rotation or 2 to wake em up to fire on further rotation.
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L.A.B. said:I managed to find the Pazon PD2B instructions.
http://www.pazon.com/files/PDF/PD2B.pdf
You said previously, that:
kromatid750 said:
Which doesn't match the final hole position as shown in the instructions, and might suggest the timing may not be quite right?
Hi Bob
I am with LAB on this, it is what we said yesterday, it would seem you have got your clockwise and anti clockwise mixed up. The pickup sensor is at the top of the green plate and when timed correctly the hole will be slightly to the right of the pickup.
If you draw an imaginary line through the hole visible (in the picture LAB has posted) at the bottom in the inspection window and the centre bolt you will see it is to the right of the pickup. I suspect yours will be to the left of the pickup! and therefore considerably advanced.
Hope this helps
cheers
JohnT
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After my post regarding position of back plate hole in window, the timing was redone. I may have made a mistake before, in either observation of position or setting the timing, but it is now exactly as shown in manual. And yes, the other hole would be just to the right of the pick-up and not directly under it as I imprecisely said. There are no clockwise/anticlockwise methods with this unit ; there is just one way to set it up - it does have to be turned in opposite directions at different times, but my stupidity does not stretch that far (I hope!).
I recognise the throttle techniques described from my old Commando - I think I have tried just about everything in that department.
Tried the starting ritual again today. This time it seemed to nearly catch two or three times, but just ended up spitting back through the carbs - reminiscent of a Triumph Speed Twin that I did set the timing 180 degrees out on when I was 19 and had only ever ridden a scooter. Mind, that was an awful lot easier to kick over!
Could it be clutching at straws to think it may be an incorrectly wired black box? I don't know which wires of the four to swap over (ANYBODY?), or I could deliberately set the unit on the wrong timing mark???!!!
Thank you all for your responses. Bob
I recognise the throttle techniques described from my old Commando - I think I have tried just about everything in that department.
Tried the starting ritual again today. This time it seemed to nearly catch two or three times, but just ended up spitting back through the carbs - reminiscent of a Triumph Speed Twin that I did set the timing 180 degrees out on when I was 19 and had only ever ridden a scooter. Mind, that was an awful lot easier to kick over!
Could it be clutching at straws to think it may be an incorrectly wired black box? I don't know which wires of the four to swap over (ANYBODY?), or I could deliberately set the unit on the wrong timing mark???!!!
Thank you all for your responses. Bob
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