My first hot rod Norton

Sealed frame with KBS tank sealer good to 500 degrees they say.

Installed engine today, there seems to be many ways and threads how to do this, none are wrong this just works best for me. First I install font suspension, so I can hold in lift clamp. and block frame to a approximate height it would naturally be. Note where I placed the block, the rear of the engine needs to rest on it. I installed the front engine ISO mount. Placed a towel over frame and set the engine in. Used temporary bolts ( need to machine Ti studs) to hold in place but did not tighten. This allows the rear of the engine to sag.


Next is to install cradle. I only use the top ISO bolt and the top cradle to engine bolt. Again this allows it to be below the installed height at the engine. Slide in the transmission and install the top trans bolt.


With a soft rag to protect the paint on the frame use a pry bar to raise the engine and cradle until you can install the other two engine bolts. A tapered punch aids in alignment. Easy peasy!


Sorry should have started with this, Tools needed


The only difficult bolt to install is the bottom 5/16 engine bolt. A little more pressure on the pry bar will allow the head of the bolt to pass over the frame or you can remove the top bolt and allow it to hinge up easier.

Got out the new swing arm bushings and pin from AN. Wasn't the greatest fit. Pin was .0005 oversize on left side and .003 on the right side. Good bit of polishing on lathe and sanding on bushing ID to get my proper fit. Forgot to do the MK III modification to cradle be for install, oh well next time. LOL

You know the frame is green right ???

Fast Eddie said:

You know the frame is green right ???

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Greener than green - rhymes with mean and Gene …

mean gene said:

Sealed frame with KBS tank sealer good to 500 degrees they say.

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Gene, that's probably wise. I'd still like to hear how you terminated the oil chamber (i.e., the spine tube) towards the headstock. Did you insert a section in the spine tube containing termination and the filler neck?

On another note, I read up on the experience gained by owners of Triumph OIF frames (i.e., T120, T140V, 1971- on). Despite the reduced oil volume, and despite poor heat conduction rate of steel, oil feed temperature *appears* to be lower on hot days.
An exact comparisom to the traditional saddle mounted oil tank is difficult to achieve based on laymen's individual reports.

A few points of concern regarding your arrangement:
* The spine tube is smaller than the one specified for the Triumph OIF, which has an OD of 3".
* Using the smallish spine tube and not a large seat post tube arrangement as on the OIF Triumph means the tube and the oil within will pick up heat from the top end (by radiation and convection). Considering steel's poor heat transfer coefficient, the limited amount of cool air entering the petrol tank tunnel, and the Norton engine's tendency to run "hot", the oil could experience further heat-up.
* If the reservoir you created further down the spine tube is the only reservoir used (i.e., the spine is used as an oil pipe/cooler only), the effective cooling area offered apperars to be less that that of the saddle-mounted oil tank, at least when additional venting is provided for the latter.
* The reservoir appears to limit the possibility of fitting a decent air filter.
* Does the weight budget really favour an OIF solution for the Norton Commando? I have my doubts.
* Having an "oven" immediately below the petrol tank may not be beneficial to safety, in case someone wanted this arrangement for a street bike.

- Knut

The stock Norton oil tank is made from very thin steel. I fully intended to build an alloy oil tank to save weight on my lightweight project bike, but it soon became clear that the thicker alloy tank would weigh the same amount +- as the stock steel Norton tank, about 2 lbs iirc.

Glen

worntorn said:

The stock Norton oil tank is made from very thin steel. I fully intended to build an alloy oil tank to save weight on my lightweight project bike, but it soon became clear that the thicker alloy tank would weigh the same amount +- as the stock steel Norton tank, about 2 lbs iirc.

Glen

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Glen, you did well. There is also lessons to be learnt from development of the P11.

Improved cooling of the oil tank is obtained by inserting a spoiler (for rear side cooling) and providing louvres in the heat shield.

- Knut

mean gene said:

The only difficult bolt to install is the bottom 5/16 engine bolt. A little more pressure on the pry bar will allow the head of the bolt to pass over the frame or you can remove the top bolt and allow it to hinge up easier.
View attachment 105826

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If you ever take the engine out, replace that bolt with a stud - much easier to deal with!

TOP frame tube holds 1.9 qt of oil with addition of 1 qt bottom additional tank and the rate of surface area, plus oil cooler, I'll probably have a problem getting it up to running temps! Again I used an epoxy sealer and a top stand pipe for filling! Bottom bolt is now Ti stud.

mean gene said:

TOP frame tube holds 1.9 qt of oil with addition of 1 qt bottom additional tank and the rate of surface area, plus oil cooler, I'll probably have a problem getting it up to running temps!

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2.9 qt of oil equals 2.75 litres. That's actually less than the saddle mounted oil tank, which holds 2.85 litres.

- Knut

mdt-son said:

2.9 qt of oil equals 2.75 litres. That's actually less than the saddle mounted oil tank, which holds 2.85 litres.

- Knut

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So he has virtually the same amount of oil, but a far greater surface area (which does help a lot, I know from previous oil in frame mods).

So, I’m really failing to see what he’s done ‘wrong’ here Knut.

The guy is getting on with it. Building his version of a ‘hot rod’.

Others are welcome to get on with theirs however they wish.

Fast Eddie said:

So he has virtually the same amount of oil, but a far greater surface area (which does help a lot, I know from previous oil in frame mods).

So, I’m really failing to see what he’s done ‘wrong’ here Knut.

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As for the alleged "greater surface area", there is a big difference between theoretical figures of an area, and the effective surface area available for cooling, both with respect to shielding, incoming heat flux from the engine, and steel's poor heat conduction property.
A comparison with Triumph's OIF is misleading on several acoounts, one being that that the Triumph engineers wisely put the oil chamber away from the engine.
Upon carefully reading user reports of Triumph OIF bikes, I have concluded that heat conduction between remote frame sections is highly overrated. There are few other road bikes to compare notes with, one being the Vincent in various guises.
The latter has virtually no external frame members and a completely different engine.

FE, there is nothing "wrong" with Gene's build, and everyone may pursue whatever idea they have, preferably after considering the facts. I just aired some concerns, which may be contradicted of course. Maybe Gene's version of an OIF actually works and I will salute him!

- Knut

Lookin' good Mean Gene! Thanks for postin' I've been following you thread with great interest.

mdt-son said:

FE, there is nothing "wrong" with Gene's build, and everyone may pursue whatever idea they have, preferably after considering the facts. I just aired some concerns, which may be contradicted of course. Maybe Gene's version of an OIF actually works and I will salute him!

- Knut

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Indeed, with ‘decent’ volume and surface area I am sure it will work just fine.

Looking forward to watching the progress….

I believe Kenny Dreer used OIF on his 880 bikes.
On the Vincents, which are OIF as Knut mentioned, we do have the problem of the oil not getting hot enough, as Gene mentioned. It doesn't seem to result in any real operating or longevity issue, but it does take about a half hour of running to get the oil up to normal operating temps.
I believe the problem Kenny Dreer had with his OIF conversion of the Norton frame was oil starvation at times, so that might be worth investigating.
Maybe he had the oil pickup in the wrong location, like the scavenge pickups on Combats?
It could be that simple.
Gene has likely already thought of this and has it covered/corrected.
On edit- I see that Gene has a small oil tank as well so that must be where the oil lines connect?
Oil starvation shouldn't be any problem with that arrangement.

CNW Norton also converted at least one Commando frame to OIF.


Glen

Oil pick-up is well flooded in the bottom of additional tank! Thanks for your thoughts!

worntorn said:

I believe Kenny Dreer used OIF on his 880 bikes.

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Another thread on the subject OIF:

- Knut

On ward with assembly! This exhaust pipe came out of the frame but with the wrap won't go back in without removing bottom shock bolt and jacking the frame up 2 inches. Design flaw!!!!!!

mean gene said:

On ward with assembly! This exhaust pipe came out of the frame but with the wrap won't go back in without removing bottom shock bolt and jacking the frame up 2 inches. Design flaw!!!!!!

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I guess you are to busy butt dialing people … lol