Mid-Ohio race did not go well

Doctor G needed here.

hobot said:

Still waiting to discuss the lifter issue Doug mentioned as first item to let go. Did a valve stick to bind up or valve float to unbind push rod or cam bowing jam lifter or lifter bind to fracture? Am i only one seeing his report as similar to pulling a little pin out instead of only dealing with the resultant big grenade parts letting go? I well know a cam shaft can be bowed by rod end and other stuff smacking it with flywheel back up after something else quit 1st.

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??Did I miss something? I don't see Doug saying the lifter was the first to go. The most likely scenario is the broken rod flailing around and beating the cam and lifter on that side to death. I had a factory steel rod break and do the same thing at Steamboat years ago.

Ken

Ok Ken then just more tricks of fate and sacrificing stuff for the shear hell of it. Do other vintage racers have as much carnage? Just on a break from mower engine install so ta ta.

That's a real shame,glad you were not hurt.

hobot said:

Ok Ken then just more tricks of fate and sacrificing stuff for the sheer hell of it. Do other vintage racers have as much carnage? Just on a break from mower engine install so ta ta.

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Carnage at this level wasn't an everyday occurence in the '70s....certainly not as regular as blown gearboxes....of course it did happen...but dropped valves and being able to salvage a bottom end was probably more common, with the odd drive side case cracked but noticed before it all let go...

...but it seems to me total carnage happens less often today, I think that is mainly due to key components being stronger....and there being a wider range of component choices....

.....ther might be an effect from running fewer races in a season....it was possible to race 2 days per weekend from mid March to end October in the UK throught the '70s...fewer races today generally means less running time between strip, check and rebuild for most.....but on the other hand I think a lot of guys will try to rev their engines higher today than they might have...again due to components...

....a friend of mine does have pictures of a rod through his cases taken in the last couple if years, but he uses mainly period parts!

Ugh seen enough of my own Norton blasted vitals to begin throwing em out. If not for weak cases and weak tranny Norton race/sales fame might still be a going concern today. I was mainly wondering if the other vintage design brands have similar racing blow ups. If I'd known to ask about 15 yr ago I might of been a Harley or Indian guy instead but that P!! fooled me.

No doubt about it, Steve, 1920's racing technology is alive and well and living in Milwaukee!

Kelly George said his ancient Indian would spank his jet age '73 850 feather light power house dirt bike and that Roper the race winner was rather disappointed that Kelly didn't bring the Indian to ride. Kelly went into some detail [yoke block degrees] that not many w-could ride the Norton as set up for Roper with such sharp steering and on/off like throttle response - can Only steer by the rear at speed and I saw him lifting the front twice in a row from hook ups while skewed at apex on 1/2m oval most complained of lack of "cushion" surface traction than the tar like "grooved" tracks. That's 70ish+ mph wheelie power in top gear! In other words the old Indian would break free to red line faster yet. Kelly went on to say he's always experimenting and next cam wiil be a Norris D for even more right now break free power. The flat trackers WHACK it on to redline leaving turns into the straights rather Louder than the road racing I've seen with most the well know Nortoneers. How the mostly stock component Nortons survive that is amazing to see and worth some bragging rights to me. Kelly had a shit eating grin totalling up the cost of his Norton compared to the mostly non Norton Nortons that got left behind. Until you sacrificed to produce new heads there were less and less heads available as they broke/wore out and the last major item not being reproduced.

I'd highly recommend cryo tempering the heads for all out racers after major machining before any hard ware installed, and cranks and lifters and rods and bearings and cases and cogs and rings/pistons and fasteners * OH yeah and oil pump snout body and cam chain. Garden tractor pullers double the design rpm of their flat head side valve engines then go to redline to load down till stalled. Some brag to me they never had to open engine in year with others wearing or breaking each season, then with a wink tell me they'd froozen everything inside and out. When Peel with light flywheel disappeared the tach needle unloaded bouncing off both sides of zero peg only things that got damaged were outside the engine cases but for flattened 2S exht lobe which didn't get froozen. Crank did bend so much I used a plastic rule to find DS 1/8" TS 1/16" off but 2000 miles later needed micrometer to measure ~1/32" DS and ~1/64th TS, so assume the cyro allowed the metal memory to return. I did not baby Peel afterwards but d/t the cam lobe, oil pump drive loose with floppy chain screwing with ignition advance could only hit 110 with the 2 ft tall with 18" lowers and flaired to bar ends with prior would push it over 125 in cold dense winter air. So I claim Peel to be the highest ever rev'd surrvor Norton ever was so far. I did have one heart dropping event as I pulled back into shed after 110 mph hands off body slam flings to investigate the claim of Keith Code that the front counter steering is what really turns a cycle, heard a little Tink as engine seized drive train stopping me short on shed entry pad at 3 mph > expecting the worse I began tear down from primary to discover the rpm excitment had backed out a locktited front pulley plate screw which got trapped between DS case for a slight scare on case face. Put it back and did another 1000 mph before biting bullet to do everything I could to next Ms Peel.

Peel had some against the grain features and performance that shocked the shit out of me and others and I swear pulled harder than Kelly's wonder Norton, which I had to back off some d/t wheel at top of 2nd but it didn't jerk my ass over seat hump but Peel sure would even if set like a dragster death grip as in my P!! daze, so learned to ease on throttle till near red line in 1st and 2nd. Peel was under 350 lb by then so would rehook quick finishing pavement sharpies with a throttle chop that gave an extra kick in the seat into the next line or aim. Combat cases held after the prior stress fractures ground out and top bolt bosses plated together for 11th through bolt. I ain't looking for top end per say in Peel just the hardest accelerating cycle into - through and out of sharpest turns like flat trackers on any surface and not break. May eventually try a massaged FullAuto head to see if even more advantage with and w/o boost.

Wondering if the BIG END siezed and the Rod went , or just plain the later . Commiserations in any case .

I read that factory racers had no oil pressure at "flat out" revs, the pump could not replace the flung out oil quick enough, can the timing side big end throw out the oil before is mate gets some? more often than not the drive side [ away from supply] fails. Gregg recons the be-spoke special rod "just snapped] in this case. ie the piston pulled the alloy rod in two. measuring the other rod length could answer a few questions.?

Matt Spencer said:

Wondering if the BIG END siezed and the Rod went , or just plain the later . Commiserations in any case .

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The big and small end shells seemed to be OK, not the source of the problem; in fact the small end, with a little 3/4" piece of broken rod attached was in flawless, smooth working order, like it was just installed new. Looks like one of the bespoke machined from billet rods just snapped.

There was a point where I thought maybe I should change my team name from Left Coast Racing to "Stuff Breaks Racing".

Ken

I suppose i will be putting myself in the firing line here...but why use be-spoke rods, when Carrillo are well proven?

Doug MacRae said:

The big and small end shells seemed to be OK, not the source of the problem; in fact the small end, with a little 3/4" piece of broken rod attached was in flawless, smooth working order, like it was just installed new. Looks like one of the bespoke machined from billet rods just snapped.

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Ugh Mark Twain said humor is based on ongoing tragedy Ken. My bud Wes helped support a long ago racer saw Guppy Racing on side of his panel van, rusting away in his back lot now full of various old bike parts. My 95 yr old aunt Alice has helped sponsor some of Peel's big items this year so thinking if I got into flat trace to name it Alice's Restaurant Delivery. We all could sport Tough Breaks Racing decals for grins.

Steve....what are you going on about? 95 yr old aunt? vans rusting away? Did i say something funny?

hobot said:

Ugh Mark Twain said humor is based on ongoing tragedy Ken. My bud Wes helped support a long ago racer saw Guppy Racing on side of his panel van, rusting away in his back lot now full of various old bike parts. My 95 yr old aunt Alice has helped sponsor some of Peel's big items this year so thinking if I got into flat trace to name it Alice's Restaurant Delivery. We all could sport Tough Breaks Racing decals for grins.

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Hey Doug! Sorry to hear of your fresh engine blowing up. WOW! That is one expensive blow up! Glad to see you were able to keep from crashing, which would have made it much worse! I know folks say," OH well, that's racing" , but it still pisses you off! I lost a motor at Mid-O as well one year, broken crank.
Build a new one when you can, I know it will be better than ever. Maybe see you at Barber?
Bill Atkins

Doug MacRae said:

The big and small end shells seemed to be OK, not the source of the problem; in fact the small end, with a little 3/4" piece of broken rod attached was in flawless, smooth working order, like it was just installed new. Looks like one of the bespoke machined from billet rods just snapped.

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It does, to me anyway, raise the question of whether machining from billet is the right approach on highly stressed components. Not that i know how Carillo or others make their rods.

I was under the impression that forged parts were much more break resistant than machined parts without forging. Were those custom rods even shot peened?

Well, we won't be using billet rods again. They are obviously more limited in their life span.
I am not sure how they were treated or if they were shot peened, I will have to ask Herb

Doug, how many rev's is 100mph in forth, with a gear left? Carrilo rods are forged then finnish machined..proberly safe to 9000 plus