Kegler Clamps Fitment

1up3down · Jan 14, 2019

Heinz said he originally thought about welding the two nuts but felt the rear wheel could start a weave if a nut weld loosened, hence his rings.

baz · Jan 14, 2019

The Kegler clamps do look good to me
I wish I'd heard of them years ago I would not have gone to all the bother of converting my gearbox cradle to MK3 cotter pins

swooshdave · Jan 14, 2019

baz said:
Anyone doing the Kegler conversion don't do what "Mi Ty " does on YouTube
He junks the centre collar clamping bolt,nut and washer and replaces them with a shorter bolt with a washer and no locknut
So as you tighten the bolt against the swing arm pin it will either top out on the washer
Or top out on the pin leaving the washer loose and the bolt able to vibrate loose because it has no locknut
It comes with a longer center bolt for a reason, you tighten the bolt against the swing arm pin
And then you tighten the locknut against the clamp
Hope this makes sense if you watch the video (painful) you will see

He probably did them like I did. And if you Loctite them like I did they shouldn't back out. Right?

https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/not-another-spindle-thread.5592/

baz · Jan 14, 2019

swooshdave said:
He probably did them like I did. And if you Loctite them like I did they shouldn't back out. Right?

https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/not-another-spindle-thread.5592/

I have not read that post
But the only way these will work properly is with center bolt tightened against the flat on the swing arm pin and then the locknut tightened against the clamp
This is clearly in the design of the kit
I don't know why the bloke in the video would use shorter bolts with out a locknut!!??
It may well work fine if you loctite the bolt
As long as it is tight against the pin and the head of the bolt dosent touch the clamp
But why do that when you have bolts and locknuts supplied !!??

stanthomas · Jan 14, 2019

Torontonian said:
Yes I did the same , drilling 2 holes, welding on 2 nuts ,fitting 2 bolts until very tight against the pin with a bit of Locktight. Worked great, no issues. Oil can still be added to the original pin locator hole.

Yep, I added some 1/4 UNF nuts to the back of the engine cradle spindle tube on my Mk2A Interpol in about 1978. Has worked fine ever since.
The oil escapes past the o-rings so I don't think silicon sealant will make any difference.

swooshdave · Jan 14, 2019

baz said:
I have not read that post
But the only way these will work properly is with center bolt tightened against the flat on the swing arm pin and then the locknut tightened against the clamp
This is clearly in the design of the kit
I don't know why the bloke in the video would use shorter bolts with out a locknut!!??
It may well work fine if you loctite the bolt
As long as it is tight against the pin and the head of the bolt dosent touch the clamp
But why do that when you have bolts and locknuts supplied !!??

I think you need to read my post again. Unlike most people I took advantage of the slots in the newer spindles (they are universal so they have the MkIII slots) and a nice flat spot for the bolts to push against. Otherwise you have the end of the bolt resting on a round surface, which in my opinion is not ideal.

In order to fit it that way you need to rotate the clamps and there isn't a lot of room because of the swingarm, hence the short button heads. And yes, they don't hit the clamp so they are actually working.

And with locktite they won't go anywhere.

There is more than one way to do it. Just because you'd hadn't seen it before doesn't make it wrong. And this way might be better.

baz · Jan 15, 2019

swooshdave said:
I think you need to read my post again. Unlike most people I took advantage of the slots in the newer spindles (they are universal so they have the MkIII slots) and a nice flat spot for the bolts to push against. Otherwise you have the end of the bolt resting on a round surface, which in my opinion is not ideal.

In order to fit it that way you need to rotate the clamps and there isn't a lot of room because of the swingarm, hence the short button heads. And yes, they don't hit the clamp so they are actually working.

And with locktite they won't go anywhere.

There is more than one way to do it. Just because you'd hadn't seen it before doesn't make it wrong. And this way might be better.

Not looking for any kind of argument to be honest
I just read your post my opinion hasn't changed, if your bolts are tight against the pin then they are clearly doing their job properly
Personally I'd prefer a locknut but that's a matter of opinion
The point I was trying to make is that the video on YouTube shows the centre bolts/lock nuts being replaced with shorter bolts for some reason? These shorter bolts have to tighten against the flats on the swing arm pin and top out on the Kegler clamp at exactly the same time
I have seen many modified Norton cradles for the last 40 odd years they are usually nuts welded to the tube these always seem to work well

baz · Jan 15, 2019

swooshdave said:
I think you need to read my post again. Unlike most people I took advantage of the slots in the newer spindles (they are universal so they have the MkIII slots) and a nice flat spot for the bolts to push against. Otherwise you have the end of the bolt resting on a round surface, which in my opinion is not ideal.

In order to fit it that way you need to rotate the clamps and there isn't a lot of room because of the swingarm, hence the short button heads. And yes, they don't hit the clamp so they are actually working.

And with locktite they won't go anywhere.

There is more than one way to do it. Just because you'd hadn't seen it before doesn't make it wrong. And this way might be better.

Is space so tight that you can't get a lock nut on ?

swooshdave · Jan 15, 2019

baz said:
Is space so tight that you can't get a lock nut on ?

If I could have got a lock nut on I would have.

swooshdave · Jan 15, 2019

baz said:
Not looking for any kind of argument to be honest
I just read your post my opinion hasn't changed, if your bolts are tight against the pin then they are clearly doing there job properly
Personally I'd prefer a locknut but that's a matter of opinion
The point I was trying to make is that the video on YouTube shows the centre bolts/lock nuts being replaced with shorter bolts for some reason? These shorter bolts have to tighten against the flats on the swing arm pin and top out on the Kegler clamp at exactly the same time
I have seen many modified Norton cradles for the last 40 odd years they are usually nuts welded to the tube these always seem to work well

I agree that it's not the ideal situation just using locktite. That being said I do like that the bolts clamp against the flat and not the round part of the spindle. Like every engineering choice there are usually compromises.

If you think about how thin the tube is I think you can see why people like the clamps. While welding the nuts on is an option it takes a lot more work than the clamps.

My point is that you criticized the video without knowing why or what it was being done. Personally I would have questioned the method before submitting judgement, but hey, it's the internet, people type first and ask questions second...

baz · Jan 15, 2019

swooshdave said:
I agree that it's not the ideal situation just using locktite. That being said I do like that the bolts clamp against the flat and not the round part of the spindle. Like every engineering choice there are usually compromises.

If you think about how thin the tube is I think you can see why people like the clamps. While welding the nuts on is an option it takes a lot more work than the clamps.

My point is that you criticized the video without knowing why or what it was being done. Personally I would have questioned the method before submitting judgement, but hey, it's the internet, people type first and ask questions second...

I definitely would not do it the way it was done in the video (this is my opinion btw)
A bolt with a washer under the head that clamps to the Kegler at the same time it bottoms out on the pin?
But I would do it the way you have done
Because your bolts tighten against the pin and are then loctited in place
Would it be possible to use grub screws and half nuts ?

swooshdave · Jan 15, 2019

I was at Mike’s last night working on my crankshaft. He thought he had locktited the bolts like I did. We can throw his bike on the lift and confirm one of these days. Considering how snugger the swingarm is (it use to have a bit of movement) I’m sure the bolts are working.

Thanks for your insights!

baz · Jan 15, 2019

It is critical on a commando to have the swing arm pin held as firmly as possible
I did the MK3 cotterpin conversion many years ago,wish I'd known about the kegler conversion
I also added an extra isolastic under the gearbox and also I under braced and over braced the swing arm
And added my version of a norvil head steady

baz · Jan 15, 2019

swooshdave said:
I was at Mike’s last night working on my crankshaft. He thought he had locktited the bolts like I did. We can throw his bike on the lift and confirm one of these days. Considering how snugger the swingarm is (it use to have a bit of movement) I’m sure the bolts are working.

Thanks for your insights!

I think we are talking cross purposes here because with the bolt/washer setup in the video it'd make no difference whether it was loctited or not as a bolt with a washer under the head is clearly used for clamping the bolt
On your setup the button heads you have used are effectively grub screws that are tightened and then loctited, that's my understanding of the two setups
If I'm wrong please correct me because I may be misunderstanding what I have seen (not unusual for me!) Cheers

Ron L · Jan 15, 2019

baz said:
.......
Would it be possible to use grub screws and half nuts ?

I use stainless 1/4-28 bolts with a locknut (half nut) on the ones I have made. As you say, you need to be sure the bolt bottoms out on the pin and then use the locknut (and loctite) to keep it there.

swooshdave · Jan 15, 2019

baz said:
I think we are talking cross purposes here because with the bolt/washer setup in the video it'd make no difference whether it was loctited or not as a bolt with a washer under the head is clearly used for clamping the bolt
On your setup the button heads you have used are effectively grub screws that are tightened and then loctited, that's my understanding of the two setups
If I'm wrong please correct me because I may be misunderstanding what I have seen (not unusual for me!) Cheers

In chatting with Mike I think I know the confusion. Mike didn't cover it in the video but he actually measure and cut the bolts to fit, taking into account the thickness of the washers. I want to recheck mine to confirm how I did mine too. Thanks for pointing it out!

baz · Jan 16, 2019

swooshdave said:
In chatting with Mike I think I know the confusion. Mike didn't cover it in the video but he actually measure and cut the bolts to fit, taking into account the thickness of the washers. I want to recheck mine to confirm how I did mine too. Thanks for pointing it out!

Ok
If the bolts are cut to length then hopefully at least 70% clamping force against the swing arm pin (not ideal) and 30% to the Kegler
Unless there is no clamping force to the kegler and the bolt is loctited and washer is loose?
Either way as you say it tightened up the pin
So it must be working its just not the way I would do it
Cheers

XTINCT · Jan 16, 2019

nortonspeed said:
Welding two nuts to the cross tube isn’t even close to the all around support you will get from a good tight fitted Kegler clamp. Main support of the spindle is the clamp itself as it will provide a firm all around support.

That makes sense. I have done 2 of the welded nut mod. It works well, but when you tighten the 2 set screws on the welded nut method, you are (theoretically anyway) stretching the tube apart, and with the clamp, you're squeezing everything together. That can't be a bad thing.

swooshdave · Jan 17, 2019

XTINCT said:
That makes sense. I have done 2 of the welded nut mod. It works well, but when you tighten the 2 set screws on the welded nut method, you are (theoretically anyway) stretching the tube apart, and with the clamp, you're squeezing everything together. That can't be a bad thing.

Nothing on the Commando frame was over-engineered. Especially the spindle tube. I like the clamps.

Kegler Clamps Fitment

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