Kegler clamps vs Mark 3 cotter pin conversion

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Stephen Hill

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In Norman White's "Norton Commando Restoration Manual" he recommends a modification to the cradle which stabilizes the swing arm spindle in the same manner as the factory did on the Mark 3 models. He calls this the cotter pin conversion when done on earlier models.
It looks like a good fix, but it also looks like a lot of work: you have to remove the cradle from the bike and do some very precise measurement, fabricating, fitting and welding. Having done all that work I can imagine the tapered cotter pins might not end up exactly where you want them on the taper.

Seems to me this modification is intended to do the same thing as kegler clamps. Clearly the kegler clamp solution is easier to do.
Any comments on whether the cotter pin modification is that much better of a solution compared to the kegler clamps?
Is the kegler clamps solution inferior in function? Anybody done both mods and in a position to compare?

BTW, I am really impressed with Norman White's book. It is clearly based on years of experience and there is not much in there I would disregard.

Stephen Hill
 
Stephen Hill said:
It looks like a good fix, but it also looks like a lot of work: you have to remove the cradle from the bike and do some very precise measurement, fabricating, fitting and welding. Having done all that work I can imagine the tapered cotter pins might not end up exactly where you want them on the taper.
Click to expand...

Or, you can buy a cotter type pre-Mk3 cradle from AN.

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Plus the new spindle. Now we are talking real money. Though it doesn't really answer the question.
 
I did the MK3 conversion on my commando years ago,way before I'd ever heard of the kegler conversion
I had seen plenty of people with nuts welded on the pivot tube and bolts tightened against the swing arm pin
But I didn't like the look of this
The MK3 works perfectly
I assume the kegler also works perfectly, regarding the kegler there was discussion not long ago and it was said the kegler can be used without drilling holes
So it'd seem a lot easier and it should retain all the oil
 
Stephen Hill said:
Plus the new spindle
Click to expand...

You could grind the flats in the one you have if it is still in good condition.

Stephen Hill said:
Now we are talking real money. Though it doesn't really answer the question.
Click to expand...

Just suggested as an alternative to...:
Stephen Hill said:
...do some very precise measurement, fabricating, fitting and welding. Having done all that work I can imagine the tapered cotter pins might not end up exactly where you want them on the taper.
Click to expand...
...if you don't do it yourself then it could cost you as much, or more.
 
Either buy the AN cradle, also available from RGM, or do the Kegler mod which achieves the same and is a lot cheaper. The spindles available now have the cotter flats on them which work well with the Kegler mounts and the mounts give more leeway for being a bit out in position.
 
Hi, new to the site but have quite a bit of experience with my Interstate. The 'Kegler' clamps are simply split shaft collars available from any bearing supplier but without the threaded hole for the locking stud and nut which is not usually necessary if you use 28mm inside diameter collars. The spindle tube is about 28.3mm o.d and using 28mm inside dia. collars means the tube grips the spindle when the collars are tightened but does not permanently deform the tube so spindle removal is not affected. The contact surface area contact is much larger than the cotter pin design, they're about half the price in zinc plate and much easier to fit. https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/advanced_search_result.php?search_in_description=1&keywords=split shaft collar&
 
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If I didn't already have the Kegler clamps, and if they are no longer available, I'd use the clamps recommended but I'd still prefer having a bolt to lock to the spindle rather than clamping the tube to it. So I'd drill/tap the clamps for bolts/locknuts as per the Kegler. OTOH the Kegler mod requires drilling holes in the tube so omitting the bolts makes for an easier installation. But I just don't feel that clamping the tube to the spindle is as good a method. TBF, that's just a personal "comfort" thing. I have no idea if the Kegler mod actually performs any better.

FWIW, the Kegler clamps was one of the very first mods I made to my Commando after I bought it in '06. Many of my other "mods" consisted of removing previous owner- installed mods, replacing them with OEM components which greatly improved handling/reliability, and performance. ;)
 
MexicoMike said:
I'd use the clamps recommended but I'd still prefer having a bolt to lock to the spindle rather than clamping the tube to it.
Click to expand...
I have used them without the bolts on a setup that had no previous evidence of the spindle wallowing the spindle tube and that had an immediate handling improvement.

However I have also experimented on a cradle with the spindle tube opened out 5 thou for an oversized spindle. I added the clamps with no holes and inserted a standard sized spindle and then torqued the clamps down as hard as I dared. The spindle stayed loose in the spindle tube, so the clamps alone will not take up 5 thou of clearance. The ends of the clamps did not touch, so that was not the reason for the clamps not being effective.

Based on that you can use the Kegler clamps on an unworn setup with no bolts but is the spindle support tube was wallowed then you need the bolts.
 
At the time I started learning about the problem with the swingarm flex I got the install instructions from Heinz including how to make a bottoming drill bit and have had no problems with this solution for many years.McMasters-Carr clamps then drilled and tapped for the set-screw all done with the bike in situ.
Mike
 
Using the kegler clamps with the locking bolts seems to be a better way to go compared to the tapered cotters. Particularly if you don't plan on tearing the bike down.

I like Heinz's advice (thru YING) to use a bottoming drill. Clearly the purpose is to create a flat on the spindle under the end of the bolt, which distributes the load in a way similar to the flats on the Mark 3 spindle. Over time, vibrations, etc, the bolt will maintain pressure on the spindle.

If you drill the tube, does this mean the spindle lubricating oil runs out? Or does just the excess run out initially and then it is a non issue because the bushes are saturated anyway.
 
Stephen Hill said:
Using the kegler clamps with the locking bolts seems to be a better way to go compared to the tapered cotters. Particularly if you don't plan on tearing the bike down.

I like Heinz's advice (thru YING) to use a bottoming drill. Clearly the purpose is to create a flat on the spindle under the end of the bolt, which distributes the load in a way similar to the flats on the Mark 3 spindle. Over time, vibrations, etc, the bolt will maintain pressure on the spindle.

If you drill the tube, does this mean the spindle lubricating oil runs out? Or does just the excess run out initially and then it is a non issue because the bushes are saturated anyway.
Click to expand...
The seals aren't good enough to keep it filled with lube. They mostly keep some lube in, and most dirt/water out. Mostly. JMWO
 
Stephen Hill said:
Or does just the excess run out initially and then it is a non issue because the bushes are saturated anyway.
Click to expand...
The bushes do get saturated but then lose the oil over a period of time, my regime is to flood the chamber annually and if it empties in a few months then the sintered bushes will be ok for another year as they hang on to the oil for longer. Still on my set of bushes I installed in late 80's.
 
concours said:
The seals aren't good enough to keep it filled with lube. They mostly keep some lube in, and most dirt/water out. Mostly. JMWO
Click to expand...

To be fair, the (pre-sealed pivot assembly) factory parts books describe them as being "Dust covers".
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Anyone concerned about the loss of oil can fit the later "Pivot seals".
andover-norton.co.uk

Motorcycle parts and spares for Norton motorbikes - Genuine Andover Norton Spare Parts - Andover Norton Motorcycles Parts - Original Andover Norton Parts

Motorcycle parts and spares for Andover Norton motorbikes: Andover Norton manufactures and supplies all Genuine Factory Spare Parts for Norton motorcycles built before 2002.
andover-norton.co.uk
 
kommando said:
The bushes do get saturated but then lose the oil over a period of time, my regime is to flood the chamber annually and if it empties in a few months then the sintered bushes will be ok for another year as they hang on to the oil for longer.
Click to expand...

The leakage may actually help to remove dirty oil from the bushes, so could, perhaps, be beneficial?
 
L.A.B. said:
The leakage may actually help to remove dirty oil from the bushes, so could, perhaps, be beneficial?
Click to expand...
I think it the timing that sets what works rather than the leaks cleaning out the bushes.

My first spindle died from corrosion when the lack of maintenance of previous owners dried even the bushes out of oil, leaving the spindle to rust and then the bush wiped the rust off the spindle and absorbed it. The spindle reduced in size each time the surface rust formed and then was wiped off.

Based on that it really needs fresh oil to be added before the bushes dry out so the spindle does not get a chance to rust and lose material and going undersize, 12 months works for me with the pre MK3 leaky set up. So topping up needs to be done on a regular basis, often enough to kept the sintered bushes impregnated with oil.

I have heard of people using old used EP90 out of the gearbox to keep the swingarm cavity topped up which must be contaminated with gear particles and the spindle lasting.
 
Stephen Hill said:
Using the kegler clamps with the locking bolts seems to be a better way to go compared to the tapered cotters. Particularly if you don't plan on tearing the bike down.

I like Heinz's advice (thru YING) to use a bottoming drill. Clearly the purpose is to create a flat on the spindle under the end of the bolt, which distributes the load in a way similar to the flats on the Mark 3 spindle. Over time, vibrations, etc, the bolt will maintain pressure on the spindle.

If you drill the tube, does this mean the spindle lubricating oil runs out? Or does just the excess run out initially and then it is a non issue because the bushes are saturated anyway.
Click to expand...
Stephen,
I use 140W maybe 2-3 times a year put in by removing the zero fitting using a small oil can.Drips (marginal) for about 2 outings.Like concours says,the o-rings keep the dust out.
Mike
 
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