is it a combat (2015)

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lcrken said:
Nothing really exciting to add here, just feeling a need to summarize.

Can we at least agree on the following statements about Combat Commandos?

1. The Combat engine was an option available for Commandos only in 1972. The factory claimed 65 hp for the Combat engine, vs. 60 hp for the Standard engine.

2. The option consisted of milling the head .040", fitting 32 mm Amals, a 2S (or, as the brochure calls it, a Double S) cam, and black painted cylinders.

3. The disk front brake was an option for 1972 Standard Models, but was fitted to all models with the Combat engine.

4. As delivered from the factory the Combat engines had the same main bearing combo as the Standard Commando at that time, single-lipped rollers (R&M MRJ A30 type). Many Combat bikes had the bearings upgraded by dealers to the later "Superblend" double-lipped outer/single-lipped inner (FAG NJ306E type), either after failure of the originals, or as a preventative measure. No ball bearings on the mains. Those went away somewhere in 1971.

5. The factory recognized a problem with the Combat engines after an unexpected series of main bearing failure reports from customers, and issued a service note recommending that any replacements of the main bearings be done with the newer "Superblend" rollers. A lot of the Combat Commandos had main bearings replaced under warranty. The failures have been commonly attributed to how easy it was to rev the engine beyond it's safe limit. The engine made it's maximum horsepower at 6500 rpm, but would easily rev way past that. When treated more gently, they have been known to survive for much longer periods.

And some general observations on the use of the term:

The Combat label has been pretty loosely applied by some owners to Standard Commandos that have been modified to Combat specifications. To a collector, a Combat Commando is one that was produced by the factory with the Combat engine option. To a rider, an original Combat Commando is either regarded as a desirable factory hot rod, or as a disaster waiting to happen, or somewhere in between.

The use of the term Combat is a little like the use of Production Racer. To a collector, both refer to specific Commando models as delivered from the factory. But both are also commonly used as a description of a generic type, similar to the use of "Café Racer". It would be more correct to describe them as "replica Combat" or "replica Production Racer", or maybe "Combat style" or "Production Racer style", or something similar, but in common use the extra descriptors are frequently left off. Probably not technically correct, and annoying to purists, but that's how it is now, and we should probably get used to it.

Ken
+1 on Ken's comments. The "C" stamped on the top of the head will indicate the 0.040" milled although some came with smaller intake ports as Dynodave stated in other posts. I measured my pushrods and they were shorter. I am not sure if all combats were fitted with copper head gaskets but mine came with one when I purchased as a second or third hand used roadster in early 80’s. I have the 2s cam in there and hepolite standards with the teardrop oil slots but not the slot across the oil groove as some were. When I pulled mine apart I had a supers on the drive side and a roller on the timing. I have changed this to two supperblends and +0.020” pistons. This bike was taken apart once before I got it but all the tell tail components are there as Ken stated above.
Regards,
Tom
CNN
 
lcrken said:
Can we at least agree on the following statements about Combat Commandos?

1. The Combat engine was an option available for Commandos only in 1972.

Roy Bacon (Norton Twins) and Steve Wilson (Norton Motor Cycles, from 1950 to 1986) both state in their books that the Combat specification engine was available from mid-1970.

lcrken said:
4. As delivered from the factory the Combat engines had the same main bearing combo as the Standard Commando at that time, single-lipped rollers (R&M MRJ A30 type). Many Combat bikes had the bearings upgraded by dealers to the later "Superblend" double-lipped outer/single-lipped inner (FAG NJ306E type), either after failure of the originals, or as a preventative measure.

The original bearing known as "Superblend" initially fitted and supplied by the factory was the R&M 6/MRJA30, this was a single-lipped outer, double-lipped inner "NF" bearing, as were the previous MRJA30 roller bearings.
 
L.A.B. said:
lcrken said:
Can we at least agree on the following statements about Combat Commandos?

1. The Combat engine was an option available for Commandos only in 1972.

Roy Bacon (Norton Twins) and Steve Wilson (Norton Motor Cycles, from 1950 to 1986) both state in their books that the Combat specification engine was available from mid-1970.

L.A.B.
Do you know the intake port size of these early engines? Did these engine have the ports opened to 32mm?
Cheers,
Tom
CNN
 
CanukNortonNut said:
L.A.B. said:
Roy Bacon (Norton Twins) and Steve Wilson (Norton Motor Cycles, from 1950 to 1986) both state in their books that the Combat specification engine was available from mid-1970.

L.A.B.
Do you know the intake port size of these early engines? Did these engine have the ports opened to 32mm?
Cheers,
Tom
CNN

I don't know. This is what they had to say about it:

Bacon: "Also listed from the middle of the year [1970] was an optional high performance version of the engine with raised compression and hotter cam. This was known as the Combat motor and its performance placed an even greater load on the hard pressed internals."

Wilson: "In mid-1970 the Combat engine option was offered for the first time, with better breathing, a 10:1 compression ratio and polished internals."
 
CanukNortonNut said:
L.A.B.
Do you know the intake port size of these early engines? Did these engine have the ports opened to 32mm?
Cheers,
Tom
CNN
This is a quote form Dyno Dave Norton Heavy Twin Head.

"The 71/72 head. This would be the 2nd series of commando head,. as a standard 71and 72 small port they have original port size of 28.5mm. In 72 the head would be marked with a "C" in the center top of the head to indicate the combat conversion was done. The combat RH3 was cut .042" to raise the compression. It had a 32 mm porting job. It appears the factory learned more about the porting business as time went on. First hand inspection of several "combat" porting jobs show how crudely (bad) they were done. Big.... yes. By today's standards these heads have been ruined. The "BIRCO" on the right and the casting number faintly visible on the left side are negatives (depressions in the surface)."
 
Nortons had listed performance options for (dommie) engines since the late 1950s.
Bigger bits, polished bits, twin carb manifolds when std was only a single carb.

Manxs could get all manner of stuff done, although it was usually taken to the outside tuning guys.
 
mschmitz57 said:
Some new Combat's could have upgraded bearings from the dealer.

I'd comment that that depends very much on the dealer being savvy to this.

I tried to buy some 'superblends' sometime in the later 1970s, and the (longtime Norton) dealer produced a pair of NJ306 bearings. (not 306E)
I said wheres the superblends, these aren't. He was really miffed when I refused to buy them. Lucky I didn't mail order them...
 
So after all this time ... should my signature read Combat or Roadster ... want to be honest here ...
Craig
 
Combat replica. ?

Will have to run back through this thread and see what you posted though.
If it came from the factory as a Combat, its still a Combat. Or ex-Combat. (?)
Unless someone has found a way of removing the spots from a leopard.
 
You haven't actually posted enough detail to say if yours is/was a Combat or not.
They were making Combats and Standard 750 bikes together through 1972, so you'd have to spell out what your bike came with.

Its the shaved head, 2S cam, 32mm amals, black cylinders and disk front end that spec out a factory built Combat.
Any or all of which can have been added later, so as someone said, for every 1000 Combats they made, there are now 1100 of them...
And they made plenty more than 1000 of them, before someone misrepresents what I said...

P.S. I've always wondered what they did with all the shaved heads that came off the Combats that the factory built back down into standard models, when they figured out that combat spec = trouble, warranty trouble in particular.
The melting pot ??
 
Craig said:
So after all this time ... should my signature read Combat or Roadster ... want to be honest here ...
Craig

Hi Craig.
Combat Roadster sums it up.
Ta.
 
Rohan said:
You haven't actually posted enough detail to say if yours is/was a Combat or not.
They were making Combats and Standard 750 bikes together through 1972, so you'd have to spell out what your bike came with.

Its the shaved head, 2S cam, 32mm amals, black cylinders and disk front end that spec out a factory built Combat.
Any or all of which can have been added later, so as someone said, for every 1000 Combats they made, there are now 1100 of them...
And they made plenty more than 1000 of them, before someone misrepresents what I said...

P.S. I've always wondered what they did with all the shaved heads that came off the Combats that the factory built back down into standard models, when they figured out that combat spec = trouble, warranty trouble in particular.
The melting pot ??

Thicker head gasket. Decompression plate at the cylinder base/crankcase juncture.
 
Yup my Commando has all the tells of a Combat other than the changes I have made ... single Mikuni , Boyer ignition and 21 tooth counter shaft sprocket ... anyway ... have taken Needing's advice and added Roadster to signature in the interest of clarity ... Didn't know 'bout Combat when I got it and really ... I just like the bike ... I know what it is ( matching #s combat ) and that's good enough for me ...
Craig
 
In theory there was nothing "wrong" with the factory supplied main bearings fitted to the Combat motors, they were the same bearings as the
standard 750s had and they didn't have all those problems.

The real problem was the 19 tooth front sprocket which made redlining the motor easier and more likely, causing the whipping crankshaft to dig its ends into the bearing races. A combat owner who motors stately should not have to necessarily replace his bearings.
 
1up3down said:
A combat owner who motors stately should not have to necessarily replace his bearings.

Where is the fun in that?

Stately motoring was more the realm of BMW or perhaps Royal Enfield riders, eh...
 
Duh all the service manuals both Norton issue and after market had a chapter on how to bring lessor Commandos up to Combat spec so prefectly acceptable to claim a 1972 or other years as Combat spec regardless if drum brake or where the breather comes off. Glad some historic logic stinking in about the propaganda over SuperDupers to cover up Norton manufacture bloopers. There is a long article detailing about this and posted on forum a few time but with real names concealed to protect the guilty. Combat head is its main down fall so stick on a shaved standard head leaving the port lips facing the 32 mm carb manifolds with 2S cam and feel the Cream Rise to the top.

Btw I got my 1st Combat from the son of the shop owner that sold it after being the demo bike that sold more Combats like hot cakes and ended up passed on to 2 hot rod dudes that make a lasting impression in several counties around I am told, and son Henry selling it said wanted to go faster than 120, which made me ask where can ya go that fast around here, told pretty much anywhere he wanted... so not a tender treated Commando but abused like I did the 1st week out valve floating shock and few days later dropping clutch against wheelie bar cycles, so should of blown up from the bearings out but when I sent the original no SuperDupers to Micheal Tagileri in NYC to exam and mic to settle same discussion on Brit Iron he said still good to go go and may be using them his so famous cheap skate. Btw Combat exhaust note is a bit better than other lower CR models.
Too bad Norton did not stick a Combat decal on the real deal so will have to brew up my own.
 
L.A.B. said:
Roy Bacon (Norton Twins) and Steve Wilson (Norton Motor Cycles, from 1950 to 1986) both state in their books that the Combat specification engine was available from mid-1970.

The original bearing known as "Superblend" initially fitted and supplied by the factory was the R&M 6/MRJA30, this was a single-lipped outer, double-lipped inner "NF" bearing, as were the previous MRJA30 roller bearings.

My mistake on the years. For some reason I've always thought they were only offered in 1972. Shouldn't have relied on memory. Since Norrton used the ball timing side bearing until late 1971, that would mean the earlier Combats did have that bearing.

Regarding the MRJ A30 roller, Norton described it in their service notes only as a "single lip roller" bearing. From what you have said, I assume they meant single lip outer/double lip inner. Back in '73 or so, when I bought a set of new "Superblends" from my Norton dealer to update my 750 PR engine, they were FAG NJ306E, and that's all I have used ever since. I've always assumed that all the "Superblend" bearings were like them, with double lip outer/single lip inner. Apparently that is also incorrect. I think I'd better leave the discussion of what "Combat" means to those who are better informed than I.

At least I got the black cylinder color right. :oops:

Ken
 
With the P!! as first impression of Norton and with 1st Commando not knowing what was under the various bumps and fogged over seeing the manual I asked older lists how to tell w/o tools if I had a Combat or not, told it should be peaky through red line lifting the front 1st and 2nd, ... so....

moving to Ozarks with Y2K in mind on its 00 eve I decided to head out to find out on my no name alleged Combat, about 6 mo on it with plenty of crashing and draging prior and now leaking 14 places and with corner school I was pissed being stuck with a clunker I did not know how to fix, so tried to break it but became amazed lfiting front entering one turn running through 2nd and lifting a few inches exiting existing another, HOT DAM it responded-pulled better than the My SV or 900 Ninja - in that special place that iso lastic hinging had no time to onset. Can non Combat spec Commandos get similar silly thrills? On points ignition, cast iron crank slotted pistons and Amals feeding too big of ports needing hi octane >>> till tach needle swing really fast into the red zone, suddenly name makes sense.

INOA or some crazy club should have a ralley near a race track drag strip and get on with pecking order.
Being out of Texas I know its impolite to to embrass others by saying where ya hail from, similar with saying oh that old obsolete dirty thing is a Combat Bomb Commando. As for poor low speed Combat 2S sluggishess, hahahahehehehohoHO... look close at the levels of our rear power planting

is it a combat (2015)
 
L.A.B. said:
Bacon: "Also listed from the middle of the year [1970] was an optional high performance version of the engine with raised compression and hotter cam. This was known as the Combat motor and its performance placed an even greater load on the hard pressed internals."

Wilson: "In mid-1970 the Combat engine option was offered for the first time, with better breathing, a 10:1 compression ratio and polished internals."

Where is this Bacon reference to a 1970 Combat engine option, LAB ?
 
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