How hard is it to kick a Commando

Not sure about hype but you have to remember that virtually all machines are e start from new so going back to a commando at a later stage in life can be a problem.
I kick started bikes from 1973 to about 2 years ago when a possible replacement knee meant I fitted an Alton starter or I wouldn't be able to ride!
Decent ignition, well set. A hearty kick through compression almost always started it.
My son however, much lighter than me, only ridden electric start bikes struggled.
In general I think it's all about a well set up bike and good health!

I tried a 750 at Kempton Autojumble last autumn, and the kickstart lever hardly moved. It did have Castor oil in it, but even so was the most solid lever I have encountered.

Its mainly a knack, with electronic ingition set up correctly, I think I would find it easy to start a Commando, not like when i had a magneto and kept finding the oil seal had gone. But most bikes can be started easily to an old timer like me it's the "soft button " younger generation who don't know what their right leg was for, who either find it easy or struggle.

Bernhard said:

Its mainly a knack, with electronic ingition set up correctly, I think I would find it easy to start a Commando, not like when i had a magneto and kept finding the oil seal had gone. But most bikes can be started easily to an old timer like me it's the "soft button " younger generation who don't know what their right leg was for, who either find it easy or struggle.

Click to expand...

My modern Joe Hunt magneto fires up on first kick every time once fired up for the day it will start even before I get 1/2 way through the swing on the kicker.

Ashley

It's all about technique, Velo Thruxton, 500 Goldie and big thumpers like the Honda xr600r all require the "knack" unless your looking for a broken ankle.

ninja said:

It's all about technique, Velo Thruxton, 500 Goldie and big thumpers like the Honda xr600r all require the "knack" unless your looking for a broken ankle.

Click to expand...

I had mag oil seals go on my Velo, but not quite as often as when I conveted my bike to a six start worm. That was a mod with a problem they didn't tell us about. The bike still run with oil in the msg, just more difficult to start.

My buddy's 72 Combat Interstate is far easier to start than my stock 850. Dunno why.

My first bike was a 72 Kawasaki triple, 2 stroke. I used it as a trade-in for my Commando. I could kick it while sitting on the seat. When I picked up the Norton the first day I tried to start it the same way. The dealer, Fred Marsh, was a tiny old man, maybe 120 lbs. "No no no... like this!" Fred started it one kick.

I hope your knees hold out in the future, Peter. I have e-start now.

Fast Eddie said:

It is just one tiny example of how people have just become softer and less practical than those of previous generations.

Click to expand...

I would include even folks of our age (50-60+) as less skilled at the athletic kicking technique with synchronized throttle application.
As an example, in the early 2000 at a tech session I was giving, a NHT diagnostic was attempted, called a compression test was to be done. The owner and later an additional guy kicked the engine over to only obtain 60-70 psi. Well for sure an engine rebuild was required....two guys well over 200lbs each with a bit of a belly to be sure.
Not believing the results, noting their lack luster kicking technique, I said "give me a try". Not that it matters, but back then at 5' 10" and 180lbs and a boat load of experience, I wacked off 5-6 fast kicks and got a solid 150 psi each side. Some folks were very impressed yet to me it seemed normal.
Synchronized throttle opening, I analyze as follows. The very first part of the closed throttle pulls high vacuum by the slide and primed low speed circuit and juicy spray tube well. However if hopefully an ignition happens, the 22lb flywheel is very slow to rev up and cold oil sticky pistons do not help. The delayed synchronised throttle opening instantly makes the engine rev up the flywheel and prevents stalling. Hearing the engine fire and rev is the signal to immediately reduce to a hand held high idle to assist in the no stall warm up. It takes a little training and learned experience to not just start and hold an unnecessary 2000-3000 rpm buzz.

dynodave said:

No one has offered that a 2S cam with a bigger overlap is lower pressure at kicking speed is easier to start than a stock cam

Click to expand...

maylar said:

My buddy's 72 Combat Interstate is far easier to start than my stock 850. Dunno why.

Click to expand...

dynodave said:

No one has offered that a 2S cam with a bigger overlap is lower pressure at kicking speed is easier to start than a stock cam....

Click to expand...

Absolutely true, but counter intuitive to me... I would think the higher compression would dominate starting effort. It doesn't.

maylar said:

Absolutely true, but counter intuitive to me... I would think the higher compression would dominate starting effort. It doesn't.

Click to expand...

The difference is static academic compression ratio VS real world dynamic pressure.
Knowledge and education about all aspects of internal combustion engines and machinery has been a life long pursuit of mine. MGB, Lotus Elan, BSA, late Ducati, all NHT, and more recently 2 stroke vintage and more modern chainsaws and other OPE are a predominant part of my life. However, I'm a jack of all trades and master of none.

I’d be very interested to know what people who know think to the effects of the cam, vs that of raised CR with regards to kick start effort.

I had my cam followers with my JS#1 cam re radiused from 1 1/8 to 7/8 inch, thus reducing the cam duration significantly. I did not detect any reduction in kick start effort before and after.

My 920 has 11:1 CR and a Maney race cam, which is similar to a 4S. That is the most difficult engine to kick over that I have ever encountered !

How NOT to do it........... but it worked!
I aquired my friend's Norton after he lost his battle with cancer. I thought it would be a good father/son project with my 18 year old (and it is!). The bike sat in my friend's shed untouched for over 30 years. We took care of the essentials just to see if it would start. Here is the first start in over 30 years. I told Wil to go ahead and kick start it. He never kicked a motorcycle before. This video is after about 20 unsuccessful prior kicks with no sign of life. Notice the beating the rear foot peg took before he realized he should fold it up. The first seconds in the video is the first sputter. Fun to see how excited he got.



If the link doesnt work search youtube for 181228rknc.

Fast Eddie said:

I’d be very interested to know what people who know think to the effects of the cam, vs that of raised CR with regards to kick start effort.

I had my cam followers with my JS#1 cam re radiused from 1 1/8 to 7/8 inch, thus reducing the cam duration significantly. I did not detect any reduction in kick start effort before and after.

My 920 has 11:1 CR and a Maney race cam, which is similar to a 4S. That is the most difficult engine to kick over that I have ever encountered !

Click to expand...

The intake closure is the predominant controller of dead slow cranking pressure, not high RPM cam duration or lift. Truncated dwell with accompanying reduced overlap from the radiused lifters does not affect opening and closing timing events...and does not affect full lift.


Your 920 kicks over hard, you built it...live with it! LOL

Saber said:

How NOT to do it........... but it worked!
I aquired my friend's Norton after he lost his battle with cancer. I thought it would be a good father/son project with my 18 year old (and it is!). The bike sat in my friend's shed untouched for over 30 years. We took care of the essentials just to see if it would start. Here is the first start in over 30 years. I told Wil to go ahead and kick start it. He never kicked a motorcycle before. This video is after about 20 unsuccessful prior kicks with no sign of life. Notice the beating the rear foot peg took before he realized he should fold it up. The first seconds in the video is the first sputter. Fun to see how excited he got.



If the link doesnt work search youtube for 181228rknc.

Click to expand...

You get the kids permission before you posted that?

Saber said:

How NOT to do it........... but it worked!

Click to expand...

Sweet. I could do that too... 50 years ago

dynodave said:

The intake closure is the predominant controller of dead slow cranking pressure, not high RPM cam duration or lift. Truncated dwell with accompanying reduced overlap from the radiused lifters does not affect opening and closing timing events...and does not affect full lift.

Your 920 kicks over hard, you built it...live with it! LOL

Click to expand...

I’m not quite sure what your point is there Dave?

I believe you’re saying that putting a tight radius on lifters doesn’t effect kick over force, is that right? Why is this? Your graph shows less lift in the mid lift range of the cam, does this not effect effective compression?

If it is only the intake closing point that has any effect, a cam could have hugely variable lift and duration (within the realms that allow a similar intake closing point) without any effect on kick over force?

Looking at your comparison charts on you web site, the 2S and 4S cams really look remarkably close to me, especially with regards to intake closing. Am I correct? So a Maney cam, which is based on a 4S, should have similar kick over force characteristics to a 2S, is that a fair assumption?

And BTW... I am living with the 920 quite nicely actually... especially since I fitted and electric leg...!

I can hear the centerstand crying out for relief

Fast Eddie said:

I’m not quite sure what your point is there Dave?

Click to expand...

1. Look at the valve lift AFTER 540 degrees.
2. after 540 degrees the piston is going UP, the air is leaking back out. residual air left is LESS. Less air to compress means lower pressure. easier to kick over.
3. Not rocket science.
4. close intake valve earlier and there will be more residual air to compress using kick lever, pressure is higher kick lever harder to push.

5. dynamics of cylinder charge change once engine is running and air column inertia prevents air escaping.

Saber, your garage is bigger than my house (& emptier than my garage!)!

Good luck with the bike, I prepped mine after purchase with my (now late) father 22 years ago, happy memories!

Mike,

Mk III ES

I should hope you've shown your son how to kick one and save himself some energy for riding. We don't need the youngsters to lose their enthusiasm and have these old relics fall from use. Also... Nice bike.