Going Racing

SteveA said:

Conti 130 won't fit because it is 80 profile not 70 like Avon or Heidenau. Heidenau 130 is narrower than the Avon, so no need to cut it. Now if someone did a 120!

With the tight tracks in France the narrower rear might be a benefit, everywhere else it just seems to demand more physical effort.....of course it is in France where they have longer races!

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That 80 profile caught me out and I ended up altering the swing arm, plenty of room with the Avon now though.

I wonder if Pirelli will understand classic rims better, if and when they bring out a classic race tire.

Hi Ralph

I think there were half a dozen classics out there, in amongst the fz600s & the odd lc.
Triple disc as quick, cheaper tyres? Cant work that out! A grand sorted. The season is not over if you bin it!
Changes the attitude of the riders. As usual the good ones win. Rob North first second an fz600 both top riders.
Still loved it. I also run with BHS but as you know I've not been out to play much the last four years.

All the best Chris

Are any of you good fellows racing, parading or just going to the Classic / Manx?


Cheers,

cliffa.

storm42 said:

That 80 profile caught me out and I ended up altering the swing arm, plenty of room with the Avon now though.

I wonder if Pirelli will understand classic rims better, if and when they bring out a classic race tire.

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A classic bike is not a modern bike. There is not a natural progression between the two. You are not suddenly going to get 100 BHP from somewhere. The racing technique is completely different. If you tried to race a modern bike in the way you race a classic, you would probably neck yourself very quickly. Theoretically fatter tyres might give you more grip, so you might be able to put more power down on the road. But it comes at a cost in handling and you don't have that much power to deliver anyway. Good tyres help you more psychologically rather than in fact. Norton Commandos do not often step out at the rear and high-side you, regardless of how heavy-handed you might be.. If you have got the handling right, tyres make minimal difference.

While you are spending money on tyres, you might consider softening the rear shocks, so the bike squats more when you gas it. The adjustment of spring tension on most classic bikes is only UP. So you never finds out what happens when you go in the opposite direction. Most spring-makers have testers. If you take yor spring to them, they will test it and you can have springs made in ten pound/inch softer steps. Springs are relatively cheap.

Chris said:

Hi Ralph

I think there were half a dozen classics out there, in amongst the fz600s & the odd lc.
Triple disc as quick, cheaper tyres? Cant work that out! A grand sorted. The season is not over if you bin it!
Changes the attitude of the riders. As usual the good ones win. Rob North first second an fz600 both top riders.
Still loved it. I also run with BHS but as you know I've not been out to play much the last four years.

All the best Chris

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It is sad isn't it, it is what they have to do to survive, i get that, but to me, an FZ600 is not, was not and never will be a classic bike, mind you, I think the same about Ariel Arrows and they turn up at the races, so what do I know.

At the end of the day, the bottom line is, we are having fun and that can be hard to come by these days.

cliffa said:

Are any of you good fellows racing, parading or just going to the Classic / Manx?


Cheers,

cliffa.

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Unfortunately, I wont be there, but I would guess there will be a few off here there.

acotrel said:

While you are spending money on tyres, you might consider softening the rear shocks, so the bike squats more when you gas it.

Most spring-makers have testers. If you take yor spring to them, they will test it and you can have springs made in ten pound/inch softer steps. Springs are relatively cheap.

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When I built the bike, the rear rim came with the frame, it was for a 130 tire, with the 130 rear, it made sense to me to go with a 110 front and go all out on the brake setup to make use of that width.

The cost of the build was interfering with the bank managers sleep patterns so I had to look at ways of saving a bit of money. The Continentals are considerably cheaper than the Avons and that is why I used them. The fact that everyone else is on Avons has got to me at last, and as the front has been on the bike for 15 months, I have made the change. Like you say, it is in the head.

Anyway, when I got to use the bike I quickly realised I was over braked and over tired. The brakes were an easy fix, dump a disc. The tires are not that easy, I understand that it is probably over tired, but the cost both in time and money to change the rims and tires are the deciding factor in leaving things how they are for now. I could go down in width, only to discover that mister Seeley designed his frames with 19" wheels in mind and the width of the current 18" tires help with ground clearance when lent over. Reducing the width without increasing the diameter might cause more problems than it fixes.

My shocks and springs were made by Maxton for me and I was very honest with the weights they wanted so they could build them to suit me and my bike. I think the springs are right.

I did have some softer springs on the Falcons but they were bottoming out when I hit dips in the tracks in corners, and I seem to find them everywhere.

It is all expensive trial and error.

Personally I find a 90/90 works fine with a 130/70!

Funny old thing, in France the Contis are far more popular than Avons today and I see them fitted to more of the front runner's bikes than Avons! This includes the fastest two guys on Seeley Nortons at the moment, one running a 920 successfully on 90 front 110 rear. These guys are a lot faster than you or I and running well lean't over, but I see no trail of sparks!

My Rickman originally had WM2/WM3 19" rims in '75, and I wanted to change to 18" WM3/WM4 to get the tyres most of the Seeley riders were using! So I can tell you two things, one, 18" rims are a pretty time tested approach on a Seeley and two, as back then, you will not find a range of 19" tyre fitments available, today, as then, there is only one option. Back then it was Dunlop, now it is Avon.

My Suzuki T500 build already has front and rear 19" rims that came as part of the donor bike. A bit odd because whilst the original T/GT500 front was 19" the standard rear was 18"!, so I can only assume, similar too you, this was done to increase rear height, but the donor bike was fitted with standard GT500 road silencers and standard length shocks. With expansion boxes and at some time longer shocks, this potential problem will be eased.

Today the only race tyre choice available for 19" rims is Avon AM26 90/90 front and 100/90 rear, no compound variations These Avon tyres are only in production because of the Lansdowne series rules that demands 19" rims on Manx Nortons and Matchless G50s/AJS 7Rs, and for which the AM26 is basically a control tyre. Heidenau only supply a 3.25" by 19" front no rear, and Conti don't do any 19" race tyres.

I don't think you will have a problem going down to a WM3 front, but a 90/90 also just fits on a 2.5". As for the rear I have to assume you have a 3.5" rim, which is really too big for anything other than the 130! But a 130 will be fine on a 3" rim as will the 110 Conti, for smaller Avons you might be better with a 2.75" as a compromise because the 110 Conti will still fit.

As I said before, simple measurement says my rear rim is 3.2", but that isn't an available size so it was intended to be a 3" or 3.5"! I think the 110 Conti will fit it fine.

The mere mention of Maxton will be the source of a bank manager's insomnia! But when you think about it, most racers practically have a rubber fetish!

The conti is a good tire and apart from a small front slide when they were cold, I haven't really had any problems with them.

I was talking to a Dutch guy at Spa and he was telling me that the endurance guys are not that happy with the new 3 version, he said there is not as much grip with the new ones and pointed to his broken collarbone as proof.

I have those Avon AM26 race tires on my Commando and in those sizes and can vouch for them, good tires.

I will evaluate the Avons on the Seeley and if I am not getting to the edge of the front tire as was the case with the Conti then I will come down in size, will probably try a 100 first though.

Yes I have a 3.50 on the back and a 2.50 on the front so a 90/90 is just a bit small for that.

Regardless of the tyres, when you brake on most bikes, they usually tend to stand up and go straight. If you are accelerating and the rear end does not squat, the same thing happens. If the rear end squats as you accelerate around corners, usually the bike stays more upright and turns with oversteer. A lot depends on yoke offset (trail). If the bike is more upright in corners, tyres are not quite so important.
The problem with this stuff is that most of it happens quickly, so you are concentrating more on avoiding a crash, than you are on what the bike is actually doing. Often, if you get into a corner too hot, the natural tendency is to carefully brake while cranked over. If you do that, you find yourself heading for the outside of the bend. Depending on how your bike handles, a better option is to get on the gas. The whole process then becomes much quicker.
The tyres on my bike are about 15 years old. It wheel-spins when coming out of corners. Most guys cannot get around corners quick enough to beat it. It is not me, it is the bike. I think it is a mistake to use extreme angles of lean in corners, when it is possible to make the bike stay more upright as it turns.

storm42 said:

Yes I have a 3.50 on the back and a 2.50 on the front so a 90/90 is just a bit small for that.

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I haven't heard good things about the Conti 3 either, they are going to have to rethink that one. But you can still get Conti 2s, which apparently have more grip now than when they were introduced.

To be clear, I am fitting 90/90 fronts to WM3 rims, it is the ideal size for that rim, but the 90/90 tyre will fit the 2.5" rim and people do. It will be easier to find the AM26 90/90 in a front (softer) compount. The 100 will typically be a rear compound.

I wouldn't try to get right to the edge of a 90/90 AM26 on a WM3 rim, and probably not ona 2.5" rim....it will hurt! But on a 110/80 it shouldn't be that difficult.

If you aren't already you should try Tony Salt for tyres. Whilst he 'retired' from his previous employers he is still doing race tyres from home.

I was watching a video about superbike racing the other day. In corners, they are all committed to the same line with the same extreme angle of lean. So if anyone has substandard tyres, they crash. Classic bikes are not like that. If you race a classic bike in that way, you need high power and excellent tyres. With a commando, trying to out-drag other guys is pretty pointless.

acotrel said:

I was watching a video about superbike racing the other day. In corners, they are all committed to the same line with the same extreme angle of lean. So if anyone has substandard tyres, they crash. Classic bikes are not like that. If you race a classic bike in that way, you need high power and excellent tyres. With a commando, trying to out-drag other guys is pretty pointless.

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Superbikes rarely have substandard tyres, they mostly have the same tyre. Tyre wear varies by set up and style, but they start with the same kit!

I have ridden on Pirelli Supercorsas, 120/70 17" and both 180 and 190 rears on a GSXR! Dragging a knee is pretty easy with these tyres with half of your backside still on the seat. Only a few riders do it on 90s and 110s and you need to have your backside completely off the seat and then some! That is a lot of physical moving about which us old guys generally find harder to do!.

Re; “The Continentals are considerably cheaper than the Avons and that is why I used them. The fact that everyone else is on Avons has got to me at last, and as the front has been on the bike for 15 months, I have made the change”

At last you have seen the light, I have found some Conti tyres very hard wearing, but mostly made with too much wax causing it to slide easily. Unless that firm are using a race compound – I would avoid.

SteveA said:

I haven't heard good things about the Conti 3 either, they are going to have to rethink that one. But you can still get Conti 2s, which apparently have more grip now than when they were introduced.

To be clear, I am fitting 90/90 fronts to WM3 rims, it is the ideal size for that rim, but the 90/90 tyre will fit the 2.5" rim and people do. It will be easier to find the AM26 90/90 in a front (softer) compount. The 100 will typically be a rear compound.

I wouldn't try to get right to the edge of a 90/90 AM26 on a WM3 rim, and probably not ona 2.5" rim....it will hurt! But on a 110/80 it shouldn't be that difficult.

If you aren't already you should try Tony Salt for tyres. Whilst he 'retired' from his previous employers he is still doing race tyres from home.

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I got my tires for the Commando from Tony, but the new ones for the Seeley came from John Cronshaw, I rang him over a fork matter and it turns out he can supply tires

Bernhard said:

Re; “The Continentals are considerably cheaper than the Avons and that is why I used them. The fact that everyone else is on Avons has got to me at last, and as the front has been on the bike for 15 months, I have made the change”

At last you have seen the light, I have found some Conti tyres very hard wearing, but mostly made with too much wax causing it to slide easily. Unless that firm are using a race compound – I would avoid.

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They are a race compound and are the tire that most of the classic endurance lads use, so are pretty good, just fancy Avon again.

storm42 said:

They are a race compound and are the tire that most of the classic endurance lads use, so are pretty good, just fancy Avon again.

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Anything which inspires confidence when racing is good. But tyres have their limitations. If you compare the speeds you do with your Seeley Commando with what the fast guys did on 50 BHP Manx Nortons 50 years ago, do you really think you are any faster ? I have raced both back then and now, and I cannot see much difference. The main change is that the Z-grade racers are now up to speed because of the better tyres, but no faster - just safer. In the old days, the fast guys were safe because they were super-smooth riders. These days you can get away with being a ragged rider. I learned to race on shit tyres, so good modern tyres don't make much difference for me.

You would probably notice a difference today here. The track has gone very quite just now.

My first wet race and on a go-kart track. I am not happy. I am doing this for fun and this isn’t funny. For the non brits, google The Three Sisters race track. It is soaking wet and we are not allowed wets, although I see in most of my races, the supermonos are out and they are allowed wets so this could get interesting when they start lapping me.

storm42 said:

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You would probably notice a difference today here. The track has gone very quite just now.

My first wet race and on a go-kart track. I am not happy. I am doing this for fun and this isn’t funny. For the non brits, google the three sister race track. It is soaking wet and we are not allowed wets, although I see in most of my races, the supermonos are out and they are allowed wets so this could get interesting when they start lapping me.

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Not allowed wets? that is absolutely ludicrous.