Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Huh how about that, both of us are right in their assessment of the analysis, you saying poor tune state plus finding-causing an unsual - unique fault and me saying not from oil pump or other normal wear shedding. You could be the first to calibrate what to expect in series of analysis from initial run in oil to many 1000 miles of changes if same lab doing the reports. Still I can not imagine anyone doing an over haul on oil basis only rather that leaking smoking clunking or stalling to siezing.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

I can't help wondering what the oil analysis would have made of an engine with no oil filter - like ALL nortons used to be prior to the 850 ??
Magnetic sump plugs seem to attract a LOT of metallic debris.
Might have grabbed whatever went through the scavenge side of your oil pump. (?).

It used to be really common to find oil pumps with nibbles out of them inside - thats why Nortons were considered to have a good oiling system, it didn't just give up with a tiny trauma. Since Nortons wouldn't supply new gears inside for them, you either bought a new oil pump (or found a good used one), or returned them to Nortons for them to fit selected matched new gears (which I'd imagine was probably quite expensive back then).

I've cleaned out several older Norton oil tanks, and they had a fair old coating of carbon and metal sludge at the bottom...
Non detergent oil, or just a good settling system in the oil tank volume ??

I once examined and cleaned a very well worn car engine, many miles and somewhat smoky.
It had a good 3/4" of metallic sludge in the sump, and had set surprisingly solid.
Needed a wooden chisel to begin to shift it. Near 1/4" gap in the rings too.
Oil analysis of that would have freaked !! But it was a solid performer until it was pensioned off as too smoky.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Duh Norton only need oil pump to push oil to head and try to keep up with the crank sucking by slinging sufficient oil through even if pressure guage reads zero at hi way speeds. Not hobot opinion but Mr. Hudsons official statements, reading between the line in Norton Service Notes- telling vendors to remove the new oil guasge option and do not install anymore, d/t the flood of freaked out owners. Not saying 0 PSI is a good thing just not a show stopper.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

hobot said:

Duh Norton only need oil pump to push oil to head and try to keep up with the crank sucking by slinging sufficient oil through even if pressure guage reads zero at hi way speeds.

Click to expand...

Model T Fords knew that, they didn't even have an oil pump.
Splash feed did it all.
As did plenty of motorbikes, until someone invented recirculating sludge systems (oops oiling systems).

Try removing the conical rubber oil seal on your Commando though, and see how far your Norton gets...

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Actions resulting from this oil analysis.
Corrected inadequate engine tune (due to rotor timing mark inaccuracy)
Fuel in oil corrected by fitting new floats, lowering fuel level - and replacing rings (correcting blowby).
Cause of steel in oil located and corrected.
Fitted magnet filter into breather circuit to eliminate particle return to oil tank via this route.

Plus breather lip removed while cases were split (needed a valid reason to pull the motor out).

Apart from the above, Oil viscosity after 3000km was good!
@ New. @3000km
Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt. 141. 133
Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt. 23.1. 18

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

You could have just said looked at old engine, needs a rebuild ?
A compression test would have showed that ?

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Rohan said:

You could have just said looked at old engine, needs a rebuild ?
A compression test would have showed that ?

Click to expand...

Wrong again.
Compression was still fine and within 5psi of each other (steel in the oil was enough reason for me).
Looking at an engine is not reason enough to dismantle it.

How I spent a lovely morning...
Modified RH crank case for oil pick up by machining new intake and tapping to plug original intake (looked up accessnorton but thought a JBWeld intake plug could be improved on).
Ta.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Seems no one prior has done more than spot checks by oil analysis and apparently so little info to guide anything they did not follow up to estabish base lines as done for fleets and nit picking specialistist. Do you have a plan on making this oil analysis useful to the rest of us? Personally I think its academic waste of money in Nortons as do not need lab tests to movtivate rebuilding a 25 yr old engine. You obviously are a good caring mechanic so your monitoring could take a decade to establish baselines that tell ya time to redo before a destructive element occurs. Then should repeat with most the wear items cryo tempered to see if that is worth while.

I suggest a close back to back analysis - one interval of starting up as if a tender new kitten to nurse or hobot rev right up as if each cold start was new cam to break in. I was confused/pleased to be unable to hardly detect fuzz on sump mag last few 1000 miles of Trixie Combat rev up starts as prior always so 1/8-1/4 proud beard of ferric fuzz and chips. Prior treating Peel and Trixie like tender new kittens with normal slowish warm ups saw lifter witness marks of lobes but last check in Trixie for oil leaks only suprised/pleased me the surfaces were better finished burnished polished than comnoz supplied them to me. Anywho I am continuing my experimental wild man start ups to see if it extends rebuild time or not.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

A single snapshot oil analysis DOES have value. No, NOT a fleet, NOT a history/baseline, BUT, it IS useful as a cursory screening due to the fact the oil comes from an air cooled, four stroke internal combustion engine, of which there are zillions in service.
Example: high tin/copper? Repair the rod bearings BEFORE it blows up and ruins crank/cases.

I have used a single oil analysis to confirm a suspected condition on other engines.

The OP had a decent forum sharing idea, again shot down in flames by the "purists". I liked the "Put up... " part :mrgreen:

JMWO YMMV

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Annoying to frustrating to discuss logical facts with illogical opinions like a one shot oil analysis on a long used known clunker Norton engine to support reason to open up after owner Already KNEW it was going sour. WHAT we do not yet KNOW > is if initial run it oil analysis will show less or more bad test results than a 25K mile engine before blows up more expensively. Those lacking enough engine analysis back ground will think hobot is just being stupid flippant-snide instead of hoping to tease-tempt-encourage those starting oil analysis thread will continue it enough to really make it useful (or not) for over haul decisions vs run it till obvious better shut down voluntarily to dig in again. Needing steel excess report did not reveal what was producing it - only opening to discover a bolt machining flywheel which once relieved clearance a total non issue. Proper use of oil analysis is to indicate cost effective preventive maintenance, for oil change intervals, testing new materials installed or for safety to shut down before plane falls out of the sky. I suggest those thinking they know how to make use of oil analysis to scold hobot remarks - have a pow wow with their lab to learn about the long series of tests per engine model to make useful sense of it.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

For once Steve, I agree with you....

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

needing said:

Compression was still fine and within 5psi of each other

Click to expand...

Care to share with us what those compression numbers were ?

Engines will still run happily with quite low numbers.
But thats not to say that the engine can be quite worn by then.
Especially with fuel contamination into the oil....

needing said:

(steel in the oil was enough reason for me).
.

Click to expand...

How do we know that the level of steel analysed wasn't normal for this type of engine. ?
That damage to the oil pump could have happened decades ago ??
And magnetic sump plugs routinely attract a LOT of fine debris.

Its exceeding common to find nibbles out of the oil pump gears too on older nortons on teardown, pre oil filter days.
It was their ability to not really alter the oiling capability that made that system so suitable for our old engines....

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

concours said:

The OP had a decent forum sharing idea, again shot down in flames by the "purists".

Click to expand...

There is no denying the usefullnes of a regular series of oil analyses.
That was never in doubt ?
Thus far, I don't see anyone here has forked out the $$$ for them...
What does that tell us about the perceived value of the science for these old engines ?

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Well rider Needness made us aware he was aware that his oil analysis covered at least 3 separate things doing similar things, poor fuel/spark tune state, a metal shaving surprise and just plain ole long run clunker type engine so hope he or the lab can sort out which is which for us. Rohan I do not know what you do on vintage cycles but think the more ya learn the more we will end up in same camp. Might be interesting to ask oil lab if they have noticed some oils better than others, then bribe em to reveal em.

I ran into another engine stymie normal methods are not up to the task so hope to review options in the Pub.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Hi rohan.
Still being the expert on anything related to my bike?

Q - "...Care to share with us what those compression numbers were ?..."
A - Both 200+psi. The photos were in my 'Cool' thread but may be lost when I dumped the photobucket account. Combat engine with just the 0.5mm paper base gasket and copper head gasket. Bike still ran well but until it is rebuilt I won't know the gradual performance loss over years (like you don't much notice brake pad wear until you replace them).

Assumption - "...Especially with fuel contamination into the oil...".
Tuning correction - Float levels set lower / single flooding incident noted (sunk float).

Q - "...How do we know that the level of steel analysed wasn't normal for this type of engine. ?..."
A - We can't know until enough people get their oil analysed to set a 'standard'. My oil analysis reads "...large ferrous particles..." i.e. not normal in my reality.
Teardown revealed novel causation not acute or chronic damage to engine components.
The steel particles were leaving the engine not entering it. The big end shells still plasti-gauge fine.

Pointless comments - "...That damage to the oil pump could have happened decades ago ??
And magnetic sump plugs routinely attract a LOT of fine debris...".

More pointless comments - "...Its exceeding common to find nibbles out of the oil pump gears too on older nortons on teardown, pre oil filter days. It was their ability to not really alter the oiling capability that made that system so suitable for our old engines..."

My challenge to you is to have your oil analysed when next you change it and post the results on this thread.
Go on, I dare you! Put up... your oil analysis!
Ta.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Steve, I knew agreement would not last for long. !
Without doing a series of oil analyses, how do we KNOW that metal in oil or fuel in oil was beyond normal levels for these old engines ?
Magnetic sump plugs collect a lot of swarf, and there is a reason fuel injection has usurped carbs.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

needing said:

Q - "...Care to share with us what those compression numbers were ?..."


A - Both 200+psi.

Click to expand...

200 psi eh ?
Even my LeMans with 10.5:1 doesn't get those sort of numbers...

Anyone else here with an engine rebuilt 25+ years ago get those numbers ??
Anyone with a brand new engine get that high...

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

needing said:

Hi rohan.
Still being the expert on anything related to my bike?

Click to expand...

May we remind you that your bike is a Commando, same as everyone else here has.
Thats why its a Commando Forum. !!

What applies to your bike applies to our bike, more or less.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

The veracity of the actual number is moot.
The minimal variation between cylinders is the point.
Calibration of the gauge to a datum would provide no more useful information.
Ta.

Have you analysed your oil yet? as my results may apply to your bike, more or less.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

needing said:

Q - "...How do we know that the level of steel analysed wasn't normal for this type of engine. ?..."
A - We can't know until enough people get their oil analysed to set a 'standard'. My oil analysis reads "...large ferrous particles..." i.e. not normal in my reality.
Teardown revealed novel causation not acute or chronic damage to engine components.
The steel particles were leaving the engine not entering it. The big end shells still plasti-gauge fine.

Pointless comments - "...That damage to the oil pump could have happened decades ago ??
And magnetic sump plugs routinely attract a LOT of fine debris...".

Click to expand...

Enquiring minds still want to know how 'large steel particles' were in the oil being analysed ?
You did state you had an oil fiter fitted to this bike.

Those 2 facts just don't add up.

Do you routinely cut open your oil filter, on changing it and the oil. ?
If there are large particles in the filter, that is cause for concern and investigation.

As to comments being pointless, if you don't have good answers for them, your whole discussion is flawed ?