Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Greg[/quote]........... .Now back to oil. I just spilled some on the floor...I guess that would be bad for an analysis [/quote]
That's funny Greg, thanks! ,,,,,,,,, I love this forum During my years in the navy, working on many different type/make/models of aircraft, we would pull oil samples at recommended intervals (unless indications required additional samples) and log them in the aircraft log book for trend analysis for that one particular a/c, not for comparison with other squadron aircraft. ...but what the heck, maybe we'll learn something new here that we can all use.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

I have to say that I haven't had an oil analysis done on my own engine oil for quite some time.

When I did do it, I was most interested in the oxidation and viscosity results because I wanted to know if the oil was standing up to my engine -not so much how my engine was doing. Jim

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

comnoz said:

When I did do it, I was most interested in the oxidation and viscosity results because I wanted to know if the oil was standing up to my engine -not so much how my engine was doing.

Click to expand...

So what did you settle on for an oil change interval ?
You use a synthetic don't you ?

Did the fuel injection change the cleanliness of the oil at all - thus the interval ?

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

comnoz said:

I have to say that I haven't had an oil analysis done on my own engine oil for quite some time...

Click to expand...

Hi comnoz.
If available, is there a chance you could post the reports to start the ball rolling?
Ta.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Ugh has any Nortoneer considered they are filtering out data before sending to analysis? The better labs will want you to send the oil filter for main wear analysis, plus an additional oil tank sample for comparison otherwise mostly measuring how well or poor the oil filtering is. To check kidney filtering requires a blood sample and urine sample or just quessing if kidney leaking or doing a great job of retaining vital elements or effiective passing out of toxic ones, can't go by only one fluid area.
https://books.google.com/books?id=ThVQH ... ion&f=true

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Don't most folks cut apart their used oil filters, to have a squiz.
Far more diagnostic to seeing problems before they become failures.
Doesn't cost anything either, other than gashed knuckles. (?).
The sump strainer likewise, and you don't need to cut anything.

Magnetic sump plugs also, although obviously they only catch the magnetic bits.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

I read once that the oil system is both the 'blood' supply and the sewer all in one.
I don't believe an oil filter cleans the oil, just takes lumps out, and the particles are held in suspension, could be wrong...
We get the 16 cylinder Generators at work tested monthly and generally the oil is changed after 3 years. Saying that they only have 250 hours run time.
Don't a lot of modern oils have less ZDDP ? Supposed to be good for flat tappet engines.

Question for OP: did you take the sample after a long run or when the bike was cold or not run for long as the moisture I would have thought would have evaporated.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

72Combat said:

don't believe an oil filter cleans the oil, just takes lumps out, and the particles are held in suspension, could be wrong...

Click to expand...

Oil filters simply filter down to a certain size particle, and that size is down to the filter makers' capability, and wish list.

GM some years back published some research they did into filters.
They found that filtering particles down to 4 microns would approx double engine life ( of a typical water cooled multi cylinder car engine).
Compared with the usual filter that only filters down to 8 to 10 microns.

I seem to recall that Commando filters are 12 micron (could be wrong), but then we change the oil pretty often anyway.
And run fairly big clearances through the engine.
And enjoy swapping yarns on forums about engine rebuilds....

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

I see someone on another oil filter thread here quote that a filter,
which is supposed to be same as Commando is rated as 27 microns.
"same as diesel fuel filter"
(??).

And another similar thread mentions a filter rated at 10 microns....

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Oil Analysis , yeah sure , when its the color of translucent weak tea and its up to the high level make on the dipstick its ok .
The next stage of my analysis is when the numbers get to 2500 miles , I dump it for more of the same , new stuff. Penrite HPR 40 . 25W-40
Supaflee

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Rohan said:

comnoz said:

When I did do it, I was most interested in the oxidation and viscosity results because I wanted to know if the oil was standing up to my engine -not so much how my engine was doing.

Click to expand...

So what did you settle on for an oil change interval ?
You use a synthetic don't you ?

Did the fuel injection change the cleanliness of the oil at all - thus the interval ?

Click to expand...

I do use synthetic. I usually change the oil before a long trip. I guess the average is about 4 to 5000 miles. I can't say the fuel injection made a noticeable difference in how the oil looked. Jim

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

needing said:

comnoz said:

I have to say that I haven't had an oil analysis done on my own engine oil for quite some time...

Click to expand...

Hi comnoz.
If available, is there a chance you could post the reports to start the ball rolling?
Ta.

Click to expand...

If I could find it I would. It's been a while. Jim

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

I may take off Trixie's filter now she's well run in spit polished inside to follow closer to faith of factory issue, otherwise for anything goes Peel I'm going with full flow 40 uc mesh type to catch the big stuff, then for oil pump feed to initially catch stuff form frame tank, a 2nd small one with some toilet paper semi-jammed between pop pipe screens in barrel of a unused 'stach pipe' surrounded by big ring magnets thats easy to open and refresh, plus a 3rd filter for the actual wear size particle ie: a bypass fine filter for head supply under full pressure. If analysis sample wanted for some reason = open main mesh filter canister and use its oil straight from engine to back flush its mesh. Harley has 5-10 uc spin ons which seems best no brainer to me.

Seriously - Peering into the run up- break in filter sounds reasonable on 1st common sense thought But unless doing this for world class expensive race engines, research or fleet monitoring purposes its a waste of time with nil useful information *****as no matter what ya find in there its already done its damage -if any- so will only make ya miserable to ride on and on wondering when it will blow up because ya didn't pull engine back down to the valve guides and rod shells to make sure they are still there.

So ask yourselves punks as I do myself, How lucky do ya feel - or just what findings would make ya take down a nice engine that wasn't using oil or smoking or lacking power but gold and silvery flakes, chips and dust seen all over the media and an oil analysis shows over % ratios of everything?

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Hi 72Combat.
Re your: "...Question for OP: did you take the sample after a long run or when the bike was cold or not run for long as the moisture I would have thought would have evaporated..."

80ml sample was taken mid oil tank via syringe immediately after a 200km ride.
Note: zero (0) water was evident at analysis of my oil.
Ta.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

To calibrate oil analysis with the 'filtering out data" article in mind - implies need to send 2 samples, one out of filter oil tank and another out of sump drain before filter - to get idea if filters actually filtering well or if just blocking stuff that could plug oil ways - so don't matter where-when sample taken. Not finding any moisture by lab implies lab is not examine that very close. I'm steeped-trained-test graded in lab analysis - inorganic to organic medical to know maybe 5% of medicals tests are accurate - d/t operator error in sampling to processing and the interval of test equipment sevicing & calibration, both of the device and the reagents used to test with. No Doc. worth their salt will operate or prescribe on single test result, unless just in it for the money and fame.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Unlike reciprocating aircraft engines and early turbine engines, modern turbine engines have no set overhaul period but rather are “on condition”. On condition means there’s a health monitoring system in place that justifies it. Some components are time/cycle changed, however.

Among the parameters considered are power output/temperature margin, borescope inspection of hot section components, and SOAP (Spectro Oil Analysis Program).

SOAP samples are normally gathered from a warm engine oil tank. They are not gathered from the filter as the particles in question are smaller than would be captured by a filter.

The analysis is engine specific, higher than normal levels of a certain metal directs an examination of a specific component(s).
The analysis is not used to establish an oil change period. Some engines have no such period established or the period is very long term.
If an anomaly is detected it is quite common to be directed to examine a specific component. One common one on the P&W engines I’m sitting on now is a magnetic seal on the accessories such as the hydraulic pumps, generators, etc. The SOAP program is very good at pointing out one that’s going bad. The seal is replaced oil and filter changed and sampling continued. Surprisingly there’s not even a routine oil filter change called out. There is, however, a system that monitors imminent filter bypass/clogging.

SOAP for recip aircraft engines is similar. The lab can generally point to a specific area.

My point is that an analysis program is great for monitoring engine health and, if one does it regularly, it has to be at a regular period to be truly helpful after establishing a baseline, it can point out when some item is beginning to wear. The type of metal will point to a likely area although without knowing what specific alloys are where in an engine it may be only general. Oil filters are there for bigger pieces and should be cut and examined. I know when working as an aircraft mechanic I found some surprisingly big chunks that caused several timely engine teardowns.

The amount of oil in a Norton engine hardly justifies trying to use analysis for an extended oil change.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

JimNH thanx for expanding our oil filled heads more. As you say there's no baseline for Nortons so would take a few owners doing cyclic analysis to get idea of what oil is telling us. Alas who don't just keep running them regardless as long a not making excessive noises, smoking, leaking or lacking power? The range of Commando mileage before over haul of something major varies from right out the door to still waiting after decades. Needy's analysis taken at face values implies a clapped out engine but he says more a poor tune up state - implying good enough other priorities come first. Still some people with life allowing these investigative leisures should see if cyclic analysis stays fairly constant or give increasing evidence of concern.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Oil analysis confirmed by evidence during teardown (after 26 years / 16 y operational).
Oil analysis from oil tank sample showed 'ferrous particles' - the oil pump appears to have found one, spat it out/in and continued to operate anyway - confirmed by oil gauge still holding 50psi at cold start before teardown.
Used my little diamond file to restore mating faces but was surprised to find that the gears are only mild steel (not even case hardening) which is why they deformed to accommodate the particle rather than broke. Thank you Norton engineers.
Ta.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Yep my no name pre-peel oil pump long before my time had chewed up both the tabboo lock tabs from Combat cam thrust washers which chipped out notches from 3 teeth on both gears and left milder impressions like yours on most the other teeth but still worked a treat, so smoothed insides up and it lived on to supply what became Ms Peel - even after over rev took out cam chain tensioner and jerked oil pump cast iron snout apart but shafts kept it together working another 2000 miles unknown as still pumped enough. Btw unless your pump inhaled hard metal durring your last oil change to be analyized that analysis likely not picking up steel from oil pump so keep eye out on source of the - maybe- excessive levels, as would need a healthy new engine base line first to know what was expected to see in Norton.

Re: Engine oil analysis reports for comparison and selection

Waiting in rings arrival to replace worn set.
The ferrous particles in the oil tank are the sheared end of a waisted unc/unf primary stud fitted last year (to replace original setscrews). The crank shaft bears witness to the fact but contact probably only happened on LH corners as the end play was eliminated. No other damage evident (except for pump gears).
No noise of contact was heard with bike on centre stand when studs were fitted. While the cases are split the Combat breather lip was removed.
Ta.