E10 fuel

Howie Downing said:

No problems at all with E5 (steel tank… so not expecting any drama's with E10.

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On what basis are you basing the claim that it is all ‘paranoia‘?

If you have evidence or knowledge, please share it.

E10 has double the ethanol content of E5. Saying that things were fine on E5 so should be fine on E10 just isn’t a logical or robust argument.

I can't get full power from the e5 or e10 fuels.
The drop is 7 to 10 percent in the fuels tested so far.

I threw out an Amal that had been stored for a very long time with ethanol fuel inside. The previous owner of the bike didn't know about ethanol problems and left the bike sit
for a couple of years.

Ultrasonic cleaning got rid of most but not all of the crud.
There was a lot of pitting around and in the small orifices. After lots of effort and some expense, I still couldn't get the bike to run properly with that carb. It went in the recycling bin, a new Amal went on and the bike runs great.

I'll stick with my paranoia then, too many carb'd gadgets and bikes have given me grief with E5 to bother with E10.

Howie Downing said:

Less of the self-righteous attitude please. Not my experience, even in my spare bike which stood for 12 months (partly due to lockdown), started up no problem. I don't store bikes anyway (why would you do that?) both of mine are always ready to go 12 months of the year. Ultrasonics work well for cleaning. Like I say, lot's of paranoia.

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Thanks Howie, I'm out. Enjoy.

" I don't understand how E10 in the US seems OK,"

I doesn't seem ok.
Only seems ok if you only have a modern fuel injected car.
No older car, boat, motorcycle, snowmobile, ATV, chain saw, snowblower, grass trimmer, tractor, lawn mower, generator or anything with a carburetor.

MexicoMike said:

Re fuel stabilizer: For many years I've used StaBil in vehicles that have been in storage with E10 in their fuel tanks for as long as 7 months and they start as if they had been running the day before. We have several cars/motos that do that every year - not driven or started for 4-7 months. No issues at all.

No issues with the Fiberglass tank on my Commando either - whether that's due to the alcohol resistant resin used to fabricate it or the fact that I sealed it with Caswells before it's first use (or both), I can't say.

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Amen. 4 years and my four carburetor boat engine started like I shut it down last weekend. Sta-Bil has saved this mechanic MANY Saturday mornings repairing carburettors for friends & family for free. I give it away at Christmas.




NOT PARANOIA. Proven performance.

Every small engine repair shop owner/worker knows about ethanol fuel damage, they deal with it constantly.
I suppose Ethanol does create a lot of employment.
You have all of the farmers working to grow the corn.
All of the related employment in industries building and repairing massive Combines, tractors and thousands of giant Pivot irrigation systems.
You have people studying the Ogallala aquifer trying to figure out why it is drying out. They have estimated it needs 200 years of non use to fully recharge. Irrigation for corn, corn to feed cars appears to be the culprit.

Then there are all of the oil workers and refinery workers needed to provide crude oil based petroleum to run the farm machinery and burn up diesel in the effort to make ethanol.
And then there is all the labour and expense to build and operate refineries that turn corn kernels into ethanol. Yes, they only use that tiny bit of the plant.
Then there are all of the repair shops working to fix the damage caused by ethanol laced fuel.
All very good for employment.
Not great for the environment, but we are told that it is helping somehow.
One of the pumps I used in the test was labelled " Mother Nature's Gasoline"
So there is also some employment in the Ad industry as they try to convince the public that this is a great idea.

Glen

I have no doubt at all that StaBil works, cos plenty of folk have made that very clear.

But can someone tell me how it works and what it actually does?

There is always some lively discussion over here, for those inclined to discuss "paranoia"

Interesting articles in StaBil and how it works (or should I say - dueling answers):

https://weingartz.com/expert-advice/2017/01/fuel-stabilizers-sta-bil-or-sea-foam/

https://www.goldeagle.com/tips-tools/top-five-sta-bil-product-myths-debunked/ (Manufacturer)

marshg246 said:

A few posts ago we were talking about UK verse US E10 - does anyone have a bad story about E10 in the US? I wonder if the alcohol used in the US and UK are different in some way.

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Have a beer with my buddy Karl, the "chain saw doctor" and he will rattle off, like "70% of his service work is ethanol fuel damage repair"

Fast Eddie said:

But can someone tell me how it works and what it actually does?

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I did chemistry to a high level until I bailed and went into engineering, still baffled as to how it works. Unless it converts the ethanol to something else the ethanol still sits there absorbing water when warm and then depositing it as balls of water when cold.

The MSDS says it contains 95% CAS 64742-47-8.

Which is LPA® 170 Solvent, this a high-purity mixture of hydrotreated isoparaffins and naphthenics with very low levels of polynuclear aromatics. It is an excellent process solvent with high flash point and narrow boiling range. It is also know as Paraffinic Naphthenic Solvent.

So on the surface its just pre adding some volatile elements at the start of storage to top up the ones that evaporate during storage. The dosage of 1 tablespoon per Gal is too low to convert Ethanol to something else.

What I do is buy the cheapest thinners and add it to the tank in the spring 20 mins before turning on tap for the first start of the season and giving it a shake. Count 20 mins and turn the tap on, gets you reliable starts but does not cure the water issue.

Strangely Stibil say their product is good for 24 months but one of the makers of CAS 64742, which is Shell, give it a shelf life of 12 months

Another interesting article, look especially at the marine product: https://www.goldeagle.com/tips-tool...cts?,DIESEL FUEL – Diesel Formula STA-BIL ®.

kommando said:

I did chemistry to a high level until I bailed and went into engineering, still baffled as to how it works. Unless it converts the ethanol to something else the ethanol still sits there absorbing water when warm and then depositing it as balls of water when cold.

The MSDS says it contains 95% CAS 64742-47-8.

Which is LPA® 170 Solvent, this a high-purity mixture of hydrotreated isoparaffins and naphthenics with very low levels of polynuclear aromatics. It is an excellent process solvent with high flash point and narrow boiling range. It is also know as Paraffinic Naphthenic Solvent.

So on the surface its just pre adding some volatile elements at the start of storage to top up the ones that evaporate during storage. The dosage of 1 tablespoon per Gal is too low to convert Ethanol to something else.

What I do is buy the cheapest thinners and add it to the tank in the spring 20 mins before turning on tap for the first start of the season and giving it a shake. Count 20 mins and turn the tap on, gets you reliable starts but does not cure the water issue.

Strangely Stibil say their product is good for 24 months but one of the makers of CAS 64742, which is Shell, give it a shelf life of 12 months

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The Sta-Bil package label USED TO read "12 months".
Perhaps, based on countless testimonies of longer performance, they've chosen to lengthen the expected performance window?

kommando said:

I did chemistry to a high level until I bailed and went into engineering, still baffled as to how it works. Unless it converts the ethanol to something else the ethanol still sits there absorbing water when warm and then depositing it as balls of water when cold.

The MSDS says it contains 95% CAS 64742-47-8.

Which is LPA® 170 Solvent, this a high-purity mixture of hydrotreated isoparaffins and naphthenics with very low levels of polynuclear aromatics. It is an excellent process solvent with high flash point and narrow boiling range. It is also know as Paraffinic Naphthenic Solvent.

So on the surface its just pre adding some volatile elements at the start of storage to top up the ones that evaporate during storage. The dosage of 1 tablespoon per Gal is too low to convert Ethanol to something else.

What I do is buy the cheapest thinners and add it to the tank in the spring 20 mins before turning on tap for the first start of the season and giving it a shake. Count 20 mins and turn the tap on, gets you reliable starts but does not cure the water issue.

Strangely Stibil say their product is good for 24 months but one of the makers of CAS 64742, which is Shell, give it a shelf life of 12 months

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Can you speak to the corrosion aspect of the chemistry?

concours said:

View attachment 82629

Can you speak to the corrosion aspect of the chemistry?

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This is another makers sales sheet on what LPA 170 solvent does.


To quote

Applications vary widely and include metal lubricants, specialty coatings, pesticide formulations, consumer products, chemical process solvents, oilfied drilling fluids, degreasers, lamp oil, metal rolling oils, freeze point depressants, etc.

So no mention of anti corrosion properties but as its gets used as an oil/lubricant then it must have some when it covers steel. But it would need to precipitate out and bind to the steel or cover it in some way to provide a layer for protection, a tablespoon in a gall of petrol would make this unlikely. But not having a container of it I can't try it out.

Fast Eddie said:

On what basis are you basing the claim that it is all ‘paranoia‘?

If you have evidence or knowledge, please share it.

E10 has double the ethanol content of E5. Saying that things were fine on E5 so should be fine on E10 just isn’t a logical or robust argument.

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If you want to engage in a conversation then please do not mis-quote me. I said there is, "lots of paranoia", on here and in anyone of the popular classic mags. Theoretically ethanol does absorb water and therefore will corrode steel. In reality I have experienced zero problems in the last 10 + years with corrosion (steel Interstate tank) even though the tank has always had E5 fuel in it. One of the old type Amal floats distorted possibly due to age or E5, but not the other one. Amal stated, "E0 to E10 blended fuels have been in use in the USA since the late 1970's and have had no significant effect on the performance or durability of our product.", and anyway their Premier carbs are effectively ethanol proof.

As I've experienced zero corrosion problems with 5% ethanol, I'm cool about 10% content, especially as I fitted several years ago the Amal Premiers. It's not as if the ethanol is twice the strength, just twice the volume. Check out what Amal and the FBHVC have to say, it might stop you worrying. https://www.fbhvc.co.uk/fuels http://amalcarb.co.uk/ethanol-fuels

Howie Downing said:

If you want to engage in a conversation then please do not mis-quote me. I said there is, "lots of paranoia", on here and in anyone of the popular classic mags. Theoretically ethanol does absorb water and therefore will corrode steel. In reality I have experienced zero problems in the last 10 + years with corrosion (steel Interstate tank) even though the tank has always had E5 fuel in it. One of the old type Amal floats distorted possibly due to age or E5, but not the other one. Amal stated, "E0 to E10 blended fuels have been in use in the USA since the late 1970's and have had no significant effect on the performance or durability of our product.", and anyway their Premier carbs are effectively ethanol proof.

As I've experienced zero corrosion problems with 5% ethanol, I'm cool about 10% content, especially as I fitted several years ago the Amal Premiers. It's not as if the ethanol is twice the strength, just twice the volume. Check out what Amal and the FBHVC have to say, it might stop you worrying. https://www.fbhvc.co.uk/fuels http://amalcarb.co.uk/ethanol-fuels

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So, I’m miss quoting you because I said ‘all’ whereas you said ‘lots’.

You did indeed say ‘lots’, I apologise for miss quoting.

However, you also went on to make the point that there is no issue, which therefore insinuates that ALL opposing opinion must therefore be baseless.

What, are we in court here?!

I simply asked that IF you have any actual knowledge or information, please share it.

Because making the assumption that E5 was fine… therefore E10 will be, is simply not a valid argument.

Knit picking over miss quoting and accusing well respected members of having a ‘self-righteous attitude’ when they respond to you is only going to alienate.

Not a chemist, not a metallurgist and probably don't know what I'm talking about. That said, I think: It's oxygen (O) combining with the iron (FE) in steel that is rust. Water is H2O and when water is in contact with FE, it separates into H and O. The H doesn't hurt anything and most likely bubbles to the top. The O (as O2) is then able to combine with the FE as rust. Since water will sink to the bottom, it can get to the steel in the bottom of the tank.

However, how much free oxygen is made and is it enough to rust a tank bottom with no outside air getting to it? I have no idea, but answers to questions like this might stop the incessant ethanol talks which are based on perceived experience and usually provide no details.

marshg246 said:

Not a chemist, not a metallurgist and probably don't know what I'm talking about. That said, I think: It's oxygen (O) combining with the iron (FE) in steel that is rust. Water is H2O and when water is in contact with FE, it separates into H and O. The H doesn't hurt anything and most likely bubbles to the top. The O (as O2) is then able to combine with the FE as rust. Since water will sink to the bottom, it can get to the steel in the bottom of the tank.

However, how much free oxygen is made and is it enough to rust a tank bottom with no outside air getting to it? I have no idea, but answers to questions like this might stop the incessant ethanol talks which are based on perceived experience and usually provide no details.

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Steel fuel tank aside, the cast poo that the carbs are made of will corrode as well. In the tiniest of inaccessible drillings.