Commando Crankshaft Porn

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Weak response, Matt.
Resorting to lame personal insults isn`t a reasoned way of demonstrating a coherent method by which your [fanciful until proven otherwise] claims could show any validity...& per usual, you evade a direct answer, blowing a smoke screen instead...not to mention your ludicrous schemes to make a viable bike from 1/2 an old car mill.
 
Yes! Exactly the point, so when I hear about 8,000 rpm P11's (1960's vintage) I say rubbish (or something more desciptive than that). Sure there a few excursions in an old stove like that - even hopped up but unless it has a billet crank and extra heavy fortified crankcases it's scrap metal.

Correction dear ole Damage Dodger, my P!! tach was marked @ 9000 and indeed did it any time i dared. I don't care what you think i have the permanent thrilling memories of it regardless of what you missed out on even with a racer career. I assure ya no way to go anywhere on P!! if not feathering throttle till over hi way speed in 4th and even then better dam well be inline or instant flat tracker antics onset. Ms Peel is planned to spin to 8000 or more now and then to leave objective data track to stifle your know it all attitude. But shit this is what racing and building is all about, settling doubts with show downs. Get your best bike, any brand, and rider pumped up and pick a track and lets see whose hat gets eaten in public by living room build Peel. But better warn you rider I only been on one dilapidated race track so all the antics I've reviewed were enjoyed in public on secondary roads with warnings to trucks to use lower gears or no trucks allowed d/t the sharpness and off canted steepness. I never press no one just hang way back til they commit to limited coutner steering turn apex then safe to nail it out of there before they even straighten up to get back on power. After I'm ahead I don't really get on it till a turn or two further ahead as I fear for those thinking they can follow Peel's lines on anything else. Peel might be able to tolerate over 8000, her valve train sure can, but will drill in a witness bolt to touch crank flywheel to measure its deflection as I creep her up to red line to set rev limiter at.
 
Looks like it's time to get back to the subject of this thread again!

This is an interesting crankshaft from the 750 engine I just tore down. It's the engine I was running in my featherbed frame for AHRMA Sportsman 750 racing a few years ago, but the crankshaft goes back to the late '70s, when I used it in my 750 Production Racer. The crankshaft eventually cracked at the mainshaft, which all my stock cranks eventually did, and I thought I'd try having it welded. There used to be a crankshaft grinder in Burbank (Southern California) that I talked into trying to repair it. He grooved out the crack on a lathe, welded it with an automated wire feed crankshaf welding machine, and then ground it to a .090" radius, instead of the idiotic sharp corner Norton used. I ran that crankshaft in a couple different 750 engines for several years of racing, and it is still going strong. All the experts I talked to at the time (include Axtell) said it would never work, but I thought it was worth a try anyhow. This picture shows the detail of the radius, although it is a bit fuzzy.

Commando Crankshaft Porn


This is a larger view of the crankshaft. You can also see the NAS fasteners I used, still 5/16" in this case. I didn't start using the 3/8" fasteners till later.

Commando Crankshaft Porn


The next two shots show how it was balanced, with holes in the flywheel and TS cheek, and heavy metal slugs in the flywheel.

Commando Crankshaft Porn


Commando Crankshaft Porn


And for those who haven't seen it before, this is a shot of the original Norton hydraulic puller for the inner races, in use.

Commando Crankshaft Porn


Ken
 
Just got through checking the crank. Still no cracks, but after all these years, is does need the journals ground. You can see some of the wear in one of the pictures above, on the inside of the journals. It's still standard size, so if I ever use it again, I'll have it ground .010" under. I certainly can't complain about the service I got out of it. I think this might be the original crankshaft that came in my old PR back in 1971.

Ken
 
Why did ya go to bigger bolts, did ya ever have fasteners become the weak link?
Pray tell how you checks for cracks, just lens and light or with magnaflux like dyes?
I've seen cracks in cases, barely at limits of resolution with a lens and light at certain angles only after experts showed me where to look after I missed it so know it possible to miss. Might cryo it for more insurance and wear tolerance.
 
hobot said:
Why did ya go to bigger bolts, did ya ever have fasteners become the weak link?
Pray tell how you checks for cracks, just lens and light or with magnaflux like dyes?
I've seen cracks in cases, barely at limits of resolution with a lens and light at certain angles only after experts showed me where to look after I missed it so know it possible to miss. Might cryo it for more insurance and wear tolerance.

I went to bigger bolts because that's what the flat track Norton guys like Axtell and Ron Wood were doing, and they were the ones I got my initial education on Norton engines from. There were a number of cases of exploding flywheels in those days, and I think there was a suspicion that the smaller bolts and studs were not enough. May or may not have been necessary. It's a little like chicken soup when you're sick. It might not help, but it can't hurt, and it's inexpensive and pretty easy to do. I never had a crankshaft fail in action, but I checked them regularly, and the stockers did eventually develop cracks at the mainshaft, and would have broken if I hadn't replaced them. I also had one develop a crack at the drive side rod journal.

I used to send the crankshafts out for magnaflux inspection, but the shop I used went out of business long ago. Now I just use the dye penetrant tests (Dyglo and similar kits). I've seen enough cracked crankshafts now to know where to check, and what the cracks look like, and have done it enough times to be fairly confident in the results. It's not as foolproof as magnetic particle testing (Magnaflux), but good enouogh for my purposes.

The truth is, I'll probably not use this crankshaft again. I've got enough Maney, Nourish, and Falicon cranks for all the engines I plan to build in the next few years, and I'll be doing my best to use them up before I run out of time.

Ken
 
When I had my Combat motor rebuilt we sent the crank out to be checked and sure enough it had a crack developing. It was on the drive side also, I am glad that was something he said we should do. I had no idea they had problems with them at the time, Live and learn. He was in Sun Valley, maybe you have heard of him Ken. Nice guy that does nice work.
 
Had the old A10 Crank crack tested . TEN Cracks . So I chased it all over the back lawn with a 10 pound hammer . :lol: Got a bit dangerous , the crankshaft won . Wished Id just kept rideing the old cow.

Some things are pretty tough to brake , probly just hairline ( not deep ) cracks , Still .On a race motor it wouldnt have been serviceable . As it was it may well of been fine for years .
The old magnetic induction / Zyglow . : X - rays wouldve told the full story .
 
Leave ole Damage Dodger alone Matt I am seeking heated showdowns with Peel don't ya know. Long stroke friction and breathing fast enough limit Norton-ish clunkers rpm and power increases but it don't limit the Torque they can take below crank jump rope rates. Nothing I ever had was more bad ass brutal accelerator than that P!! and I don't really know what the shop did to make it so but it was so board a torque band and so deep base sounding at low rpm I was almost always in 4th gear from parking lots speeds to way over the ton. I plowed deep Fla sugar sand rut paths at trotting speed hands off throttle in 4th about 600 rpm. Back then I didn't know that was lugging a Norton out of cam lifter oil wedge. That left permanent impression its taken decades to see it might be possible to have again only this time with something that can really lean over. I guess that's really when my hobby began to tease the unknowing into contests they thought they had licked : ) The only hints of how this P!! was conceived inside was first with Capt. Norton Notes drag racers discussed lightened cranks and thin cases to take rpm then Ken educating me on Woods and Axtel engines. The P!! tach mark was in red nail polish. It had no speedo.

828cc Norton Fastback running top Gas class of UK Supertwins. Best 1/4 time 11.2 seconds
It's called Rhubarb because that's the sound it makes.
Commando Crankshaft Porn
 
Hortons Norton said:
When I had my Combat motor rebuilt we sent the crank out to be checked and sure enough it had a crack developing. It was on the drive side also, I am glad that was something he said we should do. I had no idea they had problems with them at the time, Live and learn. He was in Sun Valley, maybe you have heard of him Ken. Nice guy that does nice work.

The main man back in the '60s into the '80s for crack inspection and certified shot peaning for the SoCal racing scene was Bob Gorsuch. He originally worked out of Excello plating, but after it was driven out of business by environmental agencies, he opened a shop in Sun Valley. He might be the one you're thinking of, if you're talking back in that period. He shared the shop with a very sharp balancing guy, whose name I can't recall at the moment, and with Will Pfizenheimer (Fitz), the machinist who made the steel flywheels for Nortons back then, including one for me. Fitz had talked the factory out of a copy of the blueprint for the flywheel, and he machined exact copies in good steel. The flat plate style flywheels we see nowdays are much simpler to make, and every bit as good, but there's something appealing about keeping the original look. Fitz did them on a manual mill. It would be a lot easier to make them on a modern CNC mill, but I don't know if there would be enough demand to make it worth the time.

Bob finally retired some years ago, and moved off to live by the Colorado River near the California/Arizona border.

If your experience is more recent, and you think the guy you went to is still in business, let me know, and I'll try to hunt him up. I used to tear down my race engines at least once a year and sent everything out for crack inspection. I regularly found cracks in other parts besides crankshafts and rods, including timing gears, lifters, oil pump gears, gearbox parts, and even the occasional fastener. I'm pretty much out of any racing besides landspeed stuff now, but it would still be nice to have a good inspection guy nearby.

Ken
 
Matt Spencer said:
Had the old A10 Crank crack tested . TEN Cracks . So I chased it all over the back lawn with a 10 pound hammer . :lol: Got a bit dangerous , the crankshaft won . Wished Id just kept rideing the old cow.

Some things are pretty tough to brake , probly just hairline ( not deep ) cracks , Still .Omn a race motor it wouldnt have been serviceable . As it was it may well of been fine for years .
The old magnetic induction / Zyglow . : X - rays wouldve told the full story .

The magnetic particle inspection (magnaflux) would have only found surface or very near to surface cracks. The penetrant inspection (zyglo) commonly used on non-ferrous parts would only find surface breaking cracks. As for x-ray, given the amount of power required to penetrate a lump of steel the thickness of a crankshaft, it would only find huge cracks. However it would still be useful to locate any manufacturing defects such as porosity, laps, cold shuts etc.
For mild road use that crank probably would have been OK for another couple of thousand KMs, but for race use you were better doing what you did and chase it around the lawn :)

Webby

PS: If anyone around Belgium or SW France want a crank tested let me know, I'll do it in exchange for a beer :)
 
There may be a sonic way to check crank but might take intact crank of same design to calibrate healthy base line spectrum. I am licensed to irradiate people through the bone and have done metal components to find steel ain't all that dense to x-ray in the 125,000 volt beam range and as the cracks are at the thinner places likely a good medical unit could get inside views by a series of tangent shots around cheeks and journals radius. Worse case to shoot through sideways were xxx+ 'large' women's pelvis. I swear I could sense a sizzle or smell so eventually quit it and sent out for imaging. Some kid put together his own portable unit in two hand carry tool boxes with like 60Kv potential. It would be a neat exotic service if someone DIY too but likely many services out there more cost effective. There is the X-ray image of Cdo's available but not making crank transparent. But its can be very hard to detect a fresh or failed to heal non inflamed bone fracture that is not displaced nor showing evidence of callus. So similar issue in metal cracks, only following the metal grain interfaces at the time. These metal grain fault acts as conducts for oxygen corrosion and piezo electric potentials from vibration of dissimilar grains which create what are called currents of corrosion - exactly same as lead battery voltage chemistry. They used to have free x-ray novelty floro units you'd stick hands or feet in, till they found out what that did not so long term later.
Its been joked about that very high voltage ignition coils generate ionizing rays near the one's junk.

So really only the traditional tried and proved method to run to failure will find it every time : (

Newer digital imagers are cheap in used equipment vendors which greatly cuts down on exposure power and increased resolution so might make this practical.
http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2012- ... ay-machine
 
Ken not sure where he sent it, His shop was called TT Cycle. He is an English guy that has done a few bikes for Keanu Reeves, Really nice work. You say Bonneville??? My brother spent quite a few years there riding for NRHS on a Buell and another team before that, He was fastest on an American V-twin for a few years, In fact he may still be? First time I was on the salt i knew why so many become addicted to it. Only was there twice 06 and 08 and it was a blast. I can ask around about having things checked but I am sure you know far more people than I. What kind of speeds are ya running out there?
 
Hortons Norton said:
Ken not sure where he sent it, His shop was called TT Cycle. He is an English guy that has done a few bikes for Keanu Reeves, Really nice work. You say Bonneville??? My brother spent quite a few years there riding for NRHS on a Buell and another team before that, He was fastest on an American V-twin for a few years, In fact he may still be? First time I was on the salt i knew why so many become addicted to it. Only was there twice 06 and 08 and it was a blast. I can ask around about having things checked but I am sure you know far more people than I. What kind of speeds are ya running out there?

That would be Dean Collinson, who used to have the TT Cycles shop in Sun Valley right accross the parking lot from Axtells old shop. I've known Dean for at least 20 years now. Back in the late '80s or early '90s he also used Bob Gorsuch for his crack inspection work. I don't know who he might use now. I'll ask next time I talk to him. He closed his shop a couple years ago and now works out of his home in a rural part of SoCal. Pretty much off the radar. I sold him a Commando roadracer a while back that he prepared for Keanu Reeves.

I've run my featherbed with 750 Commando engine at Bonneville several times. The best time so far was 131.113 mph, which was a class record for a year or so. I've just swapped in a 920 engine and am installing a nitrous oxide kit, hoping for some much faster times at El Mirage this year and Bonneville next year. I was also running a streamliner with the 920 engine, but we had problems every time with chute release systems, non-funtioning electric shifters, crashes, and finally the death of the Lucas Rita ignition. The expense and logistics of running a liner was just too much for me, so I'm back to simpler machines that don't require a large team to field.

And you're right. The salt is addictive. I didn't run anything this year, but I did go to the BUB meet to help my friend run our old streamliner, but now with his stock Guzzi engine powering it. Everything went well, if not particularly fast, so now he's bulding a serious engne for next year.

Ken
 
Ken next time ya head to El Mirage and if it is ok I'd love to come see your bike, Promise to stay outta your way. I have had friends prep there for Bonneville but never made it with them. A few people I know don't care for the place because of the dust, but it's close. That place where Dean was must have been a cool place in it's day, All those gear heads in one area like that.
 
Hortons Norton said:
Ken next time ya head to El Mirage and if it is ok I'd love to come see your bike, Promise to stay outta your way. I have had friends prep there for Bonneville but never made it with them. A few people I know don't care for the place because of the dust, but it's close. That place where Dean was must have been a cool place in it's day, All those gear heads in one area like that.

At the moment, I'm hoping to run at the two-day event at El Mirage November 10-11, weather and health permitting. We might make the October 21 meet, but I doubt it. I'll post info on the forum as soon as I'm sure I'll be there, in case anyone wants to attend. Love to see you there. As your friends have pointed out, it can be pretty miserable at times, but it's what we have if you want to run for records without driving to Utah, and it's safer than running flat out on the roads.

If you, or any other forum members, get up in my part of Ventura County (near Camarillo and Thousand Oaks) and want to drop by for a visit, just let me know. I've always got some Norton project going in the shop, and I'm more than happy to talk Norton trash for hours.

Ken
 
hobot said:
There may be a sonic way to check crank but might take intact crank of same design to calibrate healthy base line spectrum. I am licensed to irradiate people through the bone and have done metal components to find steel ain't all that dense to x-ray in the 125,000 volt beam range and as the cracks are at the thinner places likely a good medical unit could get inside views by a series of tangent shots around cheeks and journals radius. Worse case to shoot through sideways were xxx+ 'large' women's pelvis. I swear I could sense a sizzle or smell so eventually quit it and sent out for imaging. Some kid put together his own portable unit in two hand carry tool boxes with like 60Kv potential. It would be a neat exotic service if someone DIY too but likely many services out there more cost effective. There is the X-ray image of Cdo's available but not making crank transparent. But its can be very hard to detect a fresh or failed to heal non inflamed bone fracture that is not displaced nor showing evidence of callus. So similar issue in metal cracks, only following the metal grain interfaces at the time. These metal grain fault acts as conducts for oxygen corrosion and piezo electric potentials from vibration of dissimilar grains which create what are called currents of corrosion - exactly same as lead battery voltage chemistry. They used to have free x-ray novelty floro units you'd stick hands or feet in, till they found out what that did not so long term later.
Its been joked about that very high voltage ignition coils generate ionizing rays near the one's junk.

So really only the traditional tried and proved method to run to failure will find it every time : (

Newer digital imagers are cheap in used equipment vendors which greatly cuts down on exposure power and increased resolution so might make this practical.
http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2012- ... ay-machine


When I worked at Petters diesel one of the jobs I had to do was take one of their unmachined crankshafts and cut it with a parting wheel on a tool & cutter grinder and take it to the lab. This was the only way that they could assess if a batch of crankshafts had been hardened and tempered correctly prior to machining.
 
Ugh, there likely is a sonic way to sample a good crank or bolt then listen for a sour note in others.
 
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