Commando Crankshaft Porn

Steve. If you look at the other pic of the flywheel,which is 4140, you will see the tapped holes that " Unbrako" super high tensile .3745" dia allen bolts that fit in .375 reamed crank holes. All bolts are exactly same length so when correct torque is known then the stretch method can be used for the hard to get too ones. The cranks positiveley position on the centre dowel and another one near the od of flywheel.With 3/4" of 4140 threads and a bit of loctite,those bolts are not going anywhere.
Sir Eddy.

Last I corresponded with Sir Eddie I thought I had him convinced to bin the stock cast steel crankshaft cheeks. He had his mind set on the 90 degree offset which will only bring complexity to the build and more cam loading.

One would wonder of the wisdom of the Three piece Crank , at those R.P.M.s , a one piece one of unobtainium being more appropriate :wink: , Steve . :lol:

also Hex may well be short for HEXAGONAL



HEX Head Cap Screw , in this case . :wink:

Heres a TWELVE POINT from Darlingbolt . :shock:





And if youre hdlyingalibaba of course you have a 12 point cap screw .

Nasty little offset comboblins , like THIS .



are Generally Accepted , when useing Torque Wrenches , in Confined Spaces . Youre welcome to figure the mathmatical strain correlation for correctness . .

NOW , Idiots Appreticed on a Block of steel for ten weeks , with ONE file .And told to reproduce metal to Drawing , with 1/2 thou tolleance .
( To far , and its ' Start again ' untill the FIRST Exam )ple ) is CORRECT , are apt to have tourque se4nsitive fingertips ( though a H2 rider disparges this amougst other facts )

The Brother worked as Motorcyclle Mechanic for several years , when not on DC 10s / 747 s etc . He stated he NEVER used a Tourque Wrench on Motorcycles .

As he didnt over elaborate . If you are Familiar with leverages , and Pay attention , in youre Formative era . You Bloody well KNOW exactly how tight the */!% things are @ .

Unless youre being distracted by hysterical pillocks which wouldnt last two minutes in a production engineering enviroment . INSUBORDINATION is the RNZN term for morons .

Matt Spencer said:

One would wonder of the wisdom of the Three piece Crank , at those R.P.M.s , a one piece one of unobtainium being more appropriate

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Well Matt, it has more to do with the material than being three piece.

Another fellow on another thread had a woody for changing out to ARP bolts yet never been a problem with factory bolts or apparently poorer quality OEM replacements.

Again, it's the material that makes the world of a difference.

Steve Maney abondoned reconditioning and heat treating the cast steel stock bits and went CNC cheeks and never looked back. They never break unless you do something incredibly wrong on a rebuild.

And of course going to a one piece billet of good quality is the cats pajamas.

I have learend and I am learning that when you change the crank firing sequence it requires an offset cam. This puts abbynormalloads on the cam and can give the cam drive fits. This is why we had to convert over to gear drive for our 500cc Norton with a 180 crank. Also included a middle bearing. Things like the little timing pinion on the crankshaft and the dainty keys on the pinion and cam gear start giving up the ghost. Not a pretty picture and an expensive proposition when things in the timing chest slip a little - the shit hits the fan in the cumbustion chanber at high speeds.

Matt, if by 'torque sensitive fingertips' you mean ham-fisted, then I agree, but finger tight would most likely prove insuffcient for holding crankshafts together..

Hokay Dancey , Id presumed it was stock :shock: :?: forgeings , which have rather large bores , sharp edges and sectional irreglarities which arnt entirely confidance inspireing .

Yep, I say Allen Key for use on an Allen bolt.....not Hex Key....

I also thought you have problems measuring torque, but measuring stretch should be fine...assuming you know how much stretch for those bolts on that day....

Thought I was translating for you North Americans!

Steve, Can't get back into Access to send messages.

Will know the stretch when I check the torqued up ones first;would guess .005-006.
For added security after communicating with Jonn Magyor [Shrapnel Dodger] about 3 months ago about not using the stock cast crank halves. I am waiting for Gregg Blagus to finish building a 4130 billet crank.Gregg is well known and highly recommended.

He is also heat treating my original that runs +/- .001" and it will be for sale when it returns.The stroke is 59.6mm-with a 73mm bore is 499cc. That short stroke will give a safe piston speed of 11,000 rpm.Wiith 6mm valves;bsa followers;needle bearing rockers ;specially designed cam by Web Cam , and lighter springs than stock we will not put any overdue strain on camshaft,so do not anticipate any problems with the camchain drive as John Magyor had;if needed I can build a centre cam support.

The reason I showed my original bolt together crank was to see the feedback it received. It did get nortoneers attention.
Cheers. The Old Geezer. Ed. siredwardbs@canby.com

" Well Matt, it has more to do with the material than being three piece. "

Assumeing comparable materials , a conection gives irregularities on strain densitie . Therefore a contiuous member is better durability & stability .

Unfortunately DESTRUCTION testing ( filmed in slow motion please ) is indicative of the displacement at the joints and their fasteners .

Then theres the load cycle in the conectors ( bolts ) , therfore there service life and durability .

This is WHY Triumph went to a one pice crank in the Bonneville . . ULTIMATE load bearing ability .

Though Steves original P11 didnt have a problem there , as there wasnt much that wasnt unobtainium , or cost no object , left . When first built .

100.000.000 people hardly noticed the cost .

Matt Spencer said:

" Well Matt, it has more to do with the material than being three piece. "

Assumeing comparable materials , a conection gives irregularities on strain densitie . Therefore a contiuous member is better durability & stability .

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Well Matt that's so true yet it's a non starter as the three piece crank design was pretty well done in my opinion. Where it fails is typically at the filets or cast iron flywheel which have f*ck all to do with how many pieces the crank is made of.

Matt Spencer said:

Unfortunately DESTRUCTION testing ( filmed in slow motion please ) is indicative of the displacement at the joints and their fasteners.

Click to expand...

Funny thing as you will never get one frame from the slow motion film showing failure at the connections since the crank will be grenaded at the more regular spots such as at the filets or the cast iron flywheel.

Matt Spencer said:

Then theres the load cycle in the conectors ( bolts ) , therfore there service life and durability .

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And your point is?????? Right up there next to the load cycles on the screws that hold the points cover in place. This is all really a non starter Matt. Somebody please show me an instance where a properly assembled Norton crankshaft failed at the bolt connections. As I stated earlier as one data point, I fragged a complete flywheel yet the bolts and crank cheeks were intact.

Matt Spencer said:

This is WHY Triumph went to a one pice crank in the Bonneville . . ULTIMATE load bearing ability ..

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So tell me, what did Triumph start with? Did they have a two or three piece crank and then went to a one piece crank? Oh and Triumphs also break crankshafts so WTF.

Matt Spencer said:

Though Steves original P11 didnt have a problem there , as there wasnt much that wasnt unobtainium , or cost no object , left . When first built .

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In my not so humble opinion, this P11 things is really out there in lala land but glad you brought it up. :lol:

You really need to understand the problem before throwing infered solutions around willy nilly. It is not the fact that Norton used a three piece crank but more a matter of inadequate filet radiuses and inadequate materials. And this really only an issue in race applications or severe abuse conditions. I believe a stronger arguement could be made for a center bearing and/or 180 degree crankshaft but I can imagine the retooling and manufacturing cost impacts.

More on the line of W T F will happen if someone spins it up to 11.000 .

We assume he may be useing a steel flywheel .

" this P11 thing is out there in la la land " ? Could be in Russia . :shock:

Youll find there were some developments in propulsion done out of Sandiago , around 67 / 68 . Cover for machine shop was ' experimental drill rigs ' .

The mag I left on the table " Anything left oput here I'll throw out " Oh DEAR . Biff bang thump. ( Leaves a impression :lol: ) Was borrowed / then given to my able brother .Mother turffed it .
Youll be entralled to know it had articals on REPAPERING your rooms ( illustrated ) , A 1922 Tractor , Overhauled and in use ( illustrated ) Preserveing Marmallade ,
AND the County Anual Drag Race Meet . ( illustrated ) all on piss poor cyclostyled newsprint. The Latest Issue . Flown Direct . By Air .
in a Briefcase . Actually in the side zipper .
With Two Photographs . Which he hung on to .

Somebody had to sign a Non disclosure before the case could be opened . Or the Chief would be on the yardarm , by the neck. or thereabouts. Not to mention the mug that signed it . :wink:
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index. ... topic=7335
Sound peculiar enough yet . ???

Some pretty peculiar classified materials were used . Five weeks five blokes , on standby after manufacture needed something to occupy idle hands . SO after two days disscussions on data anaylisis ,
WE , had a beer , Brother , The Above , and I ( myself even ) . AFTER the Briefcase was finally relocked and the ( yachting cover story ) chilled out and explained what the PHOTOGRAPHS ( no you cant have those )
"I had a few left on the end of the roll " Just shot ' Classified '" Processed U S Navy , SandDieago . ( wonder if they kept a copy :!: ) of a red bike with a funny tank , looked just like a XLR side on .
Which a P11 does , in certain lights .

SO ,
The Pics in the County News were a 52 Chev with Olds 440 or whatever , cuting 12s , sam damn thing ( GTO ) cutting 12s , four other old dogs , a mite slower ,And a 4 x 1 & a bit high showing a mighty smoke trail,
a 4 in M&H slick , and That Bike in the PHOTOGRAPHS . He had grabbed the mag at the door of the ea shop on the way out of town. THE DAY HE TOOK THE ' recreational Vehical ' back to the Bike Shop . Moday/ Project Closure .Theres a thing . That was a story in itself .

The Bikes times were a damn site quicker than the cars . tA 8 / 9 year old could even read , back in the 60s . Why . 10 year olds could do the ploughing , and 8 yr olds could strip a Stovebolt . Eh steve .

May well have a email from Paul confirming .though a lot of people arnt availed with something like total recall . ( more lng stories THERE ).

The Commader actually enyoyed the Chat. he sretched it by delaying the Taxi from Browns Bay , for his flight . As they Guaranteed to get him there if he left at 8:30

One of the five blokes had acces to Experimental un profitable ( Thousand Bucks for a Valve Spring ? Mate . ) stuff that ' Theyed found a bit expensive. Damn Good . But Worthless . To Bloody Costly . :lol:
Note , often experimental slave stuff is done in TWOS , gives a second , in case one breaks . :lol:

Therfore , Two Rods / The Entire Valve Train . The Crank was from the toughest steel unknown to man ( classified ) as were the Alloys used in the casting . Couldnt leave any scraps lying round, Could they .

The Ol;de Mans been bumped off . the Brothers in forign Parts . But Yesterday I sent a email to his alledged new address . ORDERING him to Recall the Chap , The , We will ask questions .

So five weeks for five of the better shop floor men & the BOSS. ( Administration ) and the Highest quality materials and knowedge on the planet , the problem is , does the Plot thicken .

WHO dumped it on the Roadside , and Who picked it up . and if it was elsewhere , did they discet it for materials analisis , or just go to scrap metal . :?

Matt Spencer said:

More on the line of W T F will happen if someone spins it up to 11.000 .

We assume he may be useing a steel flywheel.

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Steve Maney uses a steel flywheel and we have spun it to 11,000 rpm but that's a 59.6mm stroke, not an 89mm stroke and valve train becomes the limiting factor.

Maney limits his 920's 89 mm stroke race engines to 7200.

hobot said:

Maney limits his 920's 89 mm stroke race engines to 7200.

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Yes! Exactly the point, so when I hear about 8,000 rpm P11's (1960's vintage) I say rubbish (or something more desciptive than that). Sure there a few excursions in an old stove like that - even hopped up but unless it has a billet crank and extra heavy fortified crankcases it's scrap metal.

Furthermore, though Steve Maney may say he limits the 89mm stroke cranks (920) to 7,200 rpm that does not mean 1.) everybody does and 2.) the engine is producing more power (ex time to shift gears).

Steve's 920 engines flatten off their hp curve at around 7000 rpm, and are still making good power at 7500. I'm sure some of the racers using these engines rev them well past 7200 rpm in the heat of racing.

The 1007 engines are limited by the same things as the 920, only more so. The head will only flow so much air, there's a limit to how much you can do with the valve lift curve, and the longer 93 mm stroke hits the piston ring friction wall sooner than the 89 mm. I've not seen the dyno charts for the 1007, but I expect them to have their hp peak somewhere under 7000 rpm.

Ken

comnoz said:

lcrken said:

Good info, John.

As you said, Ron Wood had his cranks made by Moldex. Interesting story there. Ron told me that when he got the cranks from them, he was irritated that they were heavier than he had specified, but used them in his flat track bikes anyhow, and decided that he liked them better than the lighter ones.

I posted a picture earlier in this thread of a one-piece crank made by Falicon for Kenny Dreer, with larger main bearing journals, and it is a very nice looking piece.

Dave Nourish has been making them for many years, and I've used several of his cranks. I've had good luck with them, but I have seen quality control issues with some of them. They are also pretty heavy.

Steve Maney's cranks are very well made, and if you like light crankshafts, he's your man. He sticks with the original 3-piece design, which makes it much easiser to keep them light.

Marine Crankshaft here in SoCal also make custom billet cranks. I talked to them a while back about making Norton cranks, and they said they would be happy to do so, but I didn't pursue it. I've seen their work, and it is very high quality.

This is the first time I've heard of Ro-Dy cranks, but they look interesting.

There have been others like Jim Comstock who have made one-piece crankshafts from auto cranks (VW diesel for Jim and Alfa for a 500 twin in Canada), but those were one-offs for their own use. I still have a partially machined lump of 4340 VAR that I started to turn into a crankshaft but never finished. Lost my motivation when Steve started making them at a reasonable price. It makes a good doorstop.

Ken

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Hey Ken, I will send you a rock for your door if you will send me the chunk of steel. I have been wanting to play with a CNC program to make a billet crank. Jim

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OK, Jim, this is a picture of the lump.



I had roughed out the ends for the main shafts, and marked and center drilled a couple spots for the center of the rod journals. I was planning to make a couple of offset legs to clamp on the main shafts and locate on the rod journal centers so I could rough turn the journals, but never got that far. It weighs 75 lbs now, and I'd be happy to ship it to you UPS if you still entertain thoughts of making one. I used to have the aerospace certs for the original billet, but I've lost them over the years. I've also accumulated a fair amount of info on the recommended heat treat process, if you don't already have it. Let me know.

Ken

"Yes! Exactly the point, so when I hear about 8,000 rpm P11's (1960's vintage) I say rubbish (or something more desciptive than that). Sure there a few excursions in an old stove like that - even hopped up but unless it has a billet crank and extra heavy fortified crankcases it's scrap metal."

Theres a Race engine designer , ended up in SanDieago , with the Navy . the pictures would acctually be on the record , If you Know anyone inside there .
As the rest of the roll was the project .

The Machine was Nominally a P11 . The Valve train were experimental race department ornaments . I couldnt say what of the machine was O. E. M.

Obviously if Steves not dreaming , theres not a other likely explanation at the Moment , Almost recalled the Town name , maybe. last Night .
Why. that was an enthalling magazine . About 5 shhets , folded to 10 pages , small A4 size . It even had a recomend for Tuneing your upright ( piano )
Storeing your seed potatoes .

And the Annual Flower Show . Dont think the Editor was the full quid thouh , The Drag Meet Artical ran off the bootom of the Flower Show Report .

SO , the PHOTOGRAPH in there , was across the bottom. About 7 in wide and 1 1/2 deep . Along with a caption / desrip of " The Boys from TEXAS "
( cover ) that showed up to test their new motorcycle . Waas running nitro obviously , and I belive Fuel Inj , and fancy Ign . ( our fried had had to reset them and start it to get the store to take it . Though being a Chief Engineering Overseer on the Naval Project , utilised some degree of foresight.The settings for pump gas had been established prior to departing to the race meet .

I know damn well what sort of time it cut . but somebodys going to have to find the mag. , if they wanna know .


Anyway , they mustve got thetre . Ive Seen the Evidance . i had a look through a large telescope . It Full of LARGE CRATERS , like every where else theyd been .

:lol: ( Joke Chaps ! )

Assumeing this is the same ( Steves ) , it would have had greater output per litre than current race engines , then . Not sure on the displacement either .
But it sure got the team together and prevented severe disiplinary conflicts escalateing. Nipped them in the bud, in fact .

The Chief had had a yarn to all troups . accessing their capeabilities / input before o.k.ing . Recreatinal Project .

The rider was a ' pro ' in yank terms , drag racer . Four Wheel ones . Who knew how to ride a motorcyle . Like most Califorians .

May have been Muirfield where it was built , or Raced . ( County news ? )

Pop shaft and pillow block materials in service latter , 1970 would be material specs . Possibly prop mtrl too .

Obviously high resonance resistance properties were required .

Ol` Matt reckons ...it would`ve had a higher specific output than current race engines... or thereabouts, what race engines Matt? Factory J.P.N.s? Maney Commando mills, or top fuel Hemis?.
Not even normally aspirated unleaded gasoline G.P. 2Ts -@ 440hp/ltr?
As Capt Mainbearing would say, 'You`re delving into the realms of fantasy again , you stupid boy..'

Pompous , Conceted , ignorant and arrogant are perhaps some of the kinder terms to dicribe someones ineptatude and incompatance & degeneracy .

Tight Fit ? Cant see much from there , Extricate your head from youre rectum . Theres specialits who may help , I will have a word with them . :wink:

Formular one is thesedays Fantasy . Exemplified by ' Super Go-Carts '. About it . No practicable application to reality , why My Viron does 200 mph , Brillant TOYS
A car for the masses . Even theyve greater perception than certain individuals , couldnt have worse manners .Or be less opinionated on banal regurgitation .

Calling Hobot a Liar? Apoligies for James , His tendency in person on disagreements is Violence .
His father was a school teacher , there kids think they know it all . Or a good deal worse .
Goverment issue brains , substandard discount sale leftovers . Even before being damadged .