Clutch problem
- Thread starter Robb2013
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Robb2013 said:pvisseriii said:That effect is more than like from the cam effect from the chutch arm, not all good. It is NOT the effect you want and is over stressing the diaphragm.Robb2013 said:
This is how it should feel. Trust me.
Not sure I understand what you're saying. Someone mentioned before that the clutch pressure should get easier as you pull the lever, not harder. That's what I was referring to. Hey, if you guys don't think this is right I want to keep doing whatever needs to be done till it's good.
You now understand how to set up the clutch. However, as far as I know, you haven't as yet, shimmed the stack height, as it's the stack height that's the critical factor which governs the amount of lever force needed to operate the clutch (perhaps go back to where we were discussing the stack height and read through it again?).
L.A.B. said:
Ahhh thanks, didn't notice that. Also, didn't find a torque setting for the primary cover main nut so 30 lbs felt about right. Does that sound good?
Dave, I'm pretty sure my clutch has 4 steel 5 friction but I'm not absolutely certain.
What's next? Once I make sure the shifter is working I think I'll throw the carbs on and tie up everything on the handlbars, then buy a battery and finish up the wiring. I'm anxious to put the tank and fenders on but just know I'll ding them if I put them on too early, and they are showroom perfect right now as they sit on my dinning room table. (Deep red metal flake, almost burgundy, that flattens out in different light... I love the color). I was going to do the master cylinder but after finding that oxidation or whatever down in the cylinder I've started looking for a replacement.
DogT
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Ah, you read my post before I edited it which was pretty quick.
I'm still confused about DynoDave's pages. I read through the diaphragm page and it kind of morphed into a comparison of the Atlas and Commando lever arm. He also suggested putting a .080 plate in the clutch pack to loosen the pull, but then is so sincere about pack height. I just don't get it. I may have to make a diagram of the dimensions so I understand it. At least Dyno has the pressure measurements, it would be interesting to know at what point the clutch will slip given the HP of the engine and the pressure on the clutch pack.
I was pretty much convinced it was a setup issue after seeing your diaphragm wasn't inverted. I guess I can say that now that LAB can take credit.
Dave
69S
I'm still confused about DynoDave's pages. I read through the diaphragm page and it kind of morphed into a comparison of the Atlas and Commando lever arm. He also suggested putting a .080 plate in the clutch pack to loosen the pull, but then is so sincere about pack height. I just don't get it. I may have to make a diagram of the dimensions so I understand it. At least Dyno has the pressure measurements, it would be interesting to know at what point the clutch will slip given the HP of the engine and the pressure on the clutch pack.
I was pretty much convinced it was a setup issue after seeing your diaphragm wasn't inverted. I guess I can say that now that LAB can take credit.
Dave
69S
[/quote]
You now understand how to set up the clutch. However, as far as I know, you haven't as yet, shimmed the stack height, as it's the stack height that's the critical factor which governs the amount of lever force needed to operate the clutch (perhaps go back to where we were discussing the stack height and read through it again?).[/quote]
In theory, yes I understand. However, when I cut out a bunch of washers out of newspaper to shim the stack level with the height of the outer gears, once I got it level I couldn't get the circlip in no matter how hard I tried. I think I ended up getting it in with 3 sheets of newspaper "washers". Do these shim kits you talk about from OB's have shims that thin? I mean we're only talking about a few thousandths here. This is probably one of the things I'll tweak up after the bike is up and running. For now, I can live with it.... if it's only shifting comfort we're talking about and not safety or excessive diaphragm wear or something bad.
Yeah Dave, LAB nailed it but I hate to leave anyone out, I've gotten so much good info from all of you. Thank you guys again for all the help
Oh, by the way, I identified that screw 32 poser.... was one of the screws for the access panel for the clutch actuating arm.
You now understand how to set up the clutch. However, as far as I know, you haven't as yet, shimmed the stack height, as it's the stack height that's the critical factor which governs the amount of lever force needed to operate the clutch (perhaps go back to where we were discussing the stack height and read through it again?).[/quote]
In theory, yes I understand. However, when I cut out a bunch of washers out of newspaper to shim the stack level with the height of the outer gears, once I got it level I couldn't get the circlip in no matter how hard I tried. I think I ended up getting it in with 3 sheets of newspaper "washers". Do these shim kits you talk about from OB's have shims that thin? I mean we're only talking about a few thousandths here. This is probably one of the things I'll tweak up after the bike is up and running. For now, I can live with it.... if it's only shifting comfort we're talking about and not safety or excessive diaphragm wear or something bad.
Yeah Dave, LAB nailed it but I hate to leave anyone out, I've gotten so much good info from all of you. Thank you guys again for all the help
Oh, by the way, I identified that screw 32 poser.... was one of the screws for the access panel for the clutch actuating arm.
This can be relative. The big mushy o-ring does the work. If the inner is shimmed right, and there in no reason why you should not believe it isn't, the feel I have is when the out cover boss meets the inner cover boss and a definite ( this is the relative part) stop is felt. No need to go further and torque numbers may depend on the firmness or softness of the big mushy o-ring, although Old Britts states 25 ft lb.Robb2013 said:
Your earlier measurement of the clutch pack would match the Old Britts numbers if you measured it that way. The way it looks now with a very slight bow, I find to be ideal. As the friction plates wear, the bow will diminish along the the ease at which the clutch releases.
5 friction plate clutches are good, just cost 20% more to replace.
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Robb2013 said:
On p.7 you said:
Robb2013 said:
However you didn't say if the measurement was arrived at by the Atlantic Green system of stack height measurement, or the Old Britts system, and pvisseriii did ask, but you did not give an answer which left us in the dark about the actual stack height, but I must admit I can't understand how more than three sheets of newspaper could alter the stack height so drastically that the circlip could not be re-fitted.
http://www.oldbritts.com/ob_clutch_info.html
L.A.B. said:
Sorry I missed that. I wasn't aware that there were two systems for stack height measurement. What I did was I took all the plates out, stacked them together with the pressure plate and mic'd them with a caliper. Initially I had about 9 or 10 newspaper washers underneath the pressure plate. I kept taking sheets out until the circlip fit, which I had about 4 sheets left when finally able to fit the clip in. I probably could have squeezed one or two more sheet in if I really tried, but still, even 5 sheets of newspaper, which is .0025 thick per page still only equals .0125 which is pretty damn thin. I really doubt I could fit a .080 shim in there, but there is always the definite possibility that I'm not doing it right. I kept taking my paper shims out till the circlip fit in easily. I never really fought with it except that first time with the whole stack in there that brought it level with the outer gears. I was meaning to measure the space between the top of the stack and the clip groove but never thought of it at the opportune time.
DogT
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OB shim plate kit
Shim plain plates (part # 06-0745/075, $35.00 each) are approximately .075" thick.
Shim plain plates (part # 06-0745/070, $35.00 each) are approximately .070" thick.
Shim plain plates (part # 06-0745/065, $35.00 each) are approximately .065" thick.
Shim plain plates (part # 06-0745/060, $35.00 each) are approximately .060" thick.
Not sure that's what you need. We're not through with this yet.
Shim plain plates (part # 06-0745/075, $35.00 each) are approximately .075" thick.
Shim plain plates (part # 06-0745/070, $35.00 each) are approximately .070" thick.
Shim plain plates (part # 06-0745/065, $35.00 each) are approximately .065" thick.
Shim plain plates (part # 06-0745/060, $35.00 each) are approximately .060" thick.
Not sure that's what you need. We're not through with this yet.
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Robb2013 said:
It was mentioned back on p.7.
Robb2013 said:
Yes, but where did you take that measurement? At the edge of the plate stack (Old Britts way) or does it include the full height of the pressure plate (Atlantic Green way)?
If your stack height figure of 1.046" - 1.056" was obtained measuring by the Old Britts method, then it's about the normal stack height for a 4 friction plate clutch,
Old Britts: http://www.oldbritts.com/ob_clutch_info.html
However, if that measurement was obtained by the Atlantic Green method, then the stack height is low.
Atlantic Green: http://atlanticgreen.com/clutchpak.htm
Robb2013 said:
Increasing the stack height could mean the tension applied to the spring by clutch compressor tool may also need to be increased slightly in order to refit the circlip.
Guido
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Robb2013 said:
I think you did it all wrong Rob
This is the way you adjust a clutch.
Loosen the adjuster at the handle bar all the way, tighten it in.
Making sure the cable is routed right and proceed to screw in the clutch rod screw just until it makes contact with the rod and you see just a small slight movement of the diaphram.
Now back the nut of about 1/2 to 1 turn.
Adjust the slack out of the handle bar lever.
Is the clutch stack height corrected?
It was wrong in one of those pictures.
I can pull my clutch with 1 finger and it doesn't slip
I decided to pull everything apart again and take some measurements for you guys. And by the way, I do have 4 friction plates and 3 steel plates in my clutch not including the outside pressure plate. Stack height ranges between 1.050 to 1.060. The gap between the top of the diaphragm when it's compressed and in position over the clutch is 8/64ths or 1/8 or .125". Someone mentioned that the clutch tool may not have had the diaphragm compressed enough, so I cranked the shit out of it this time and it made a big difference... went from sitting almost flush with the circlip groove, to leaving me 1/8th of an inch to play with. So, I could easily slip one of Fred's .080 steel plates in there and my friends, I think we'd be in business with a finely tuned clutch. I hope I'm not beating a dead horse with this thread, but it's really been a great learning experience... and I hope not just for me but for others unfamiliar with the cmdo clutch who will soon be dealing with these same issues.
staticmoves
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Robb2013 said:
Hey Keep beating that horse!! I'll be there soon enough to take over! 8)
batrider
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OK well I think this was actually solved back on page 8 with dynodave's post Robb. If you study his graph at http://atlanticgreen.com/ndnsclutch.htm, the sweet spot is not at the spring being dead flat. It is a little past that on the way to being inverted, like .100". You are getting there with your clutch but more like a blind squirrel happening to find a nut. We've all been there before but for some of us it was like 40 years ago.
Here's the Riders Manual that came with every new bike: http://britmoto.com/manuals/Manuals/Riders_2.pdf
A lot of info in here on the basics of adjusting the clutch and other maintenance. Many new owners get the shop manual but it does not really include how to ride and maintain the bike. It is easier to read a few paragraphs in the riders manual than to parse 12 pages of good and bad info (that's Internet info) and try to tell which is which.
This is my 1001th post and I promise to shut up now for a little while anyway. Hang in there. It is a love/hate thing.
Russ
Here's the Riders Manual that came with every new bike: http://britmoto.com/manuals/Manuals/Riders_2.pdf
A lot of info in here on the basics of adjusting the clutch and other maintenance. Many new owners get the shop manual but it does not really include how to ride and maintain the bike. It is easier to read a few paragraphs in the riders manual than to parse 12 pages of good and bad info (that's Internet info) and try to tell which is which.
This is my 1001th post and I promise to shut up now for a little while anyway. Hang in there. It is a love/hate thing.
Russ
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