Clutch problem

Robb2013 · Jun 25, 2012

hobot said:
Remember to toss the soft lock tab and replace with hard steel washer/spacer and use blue loctite on the main nut. I said try a paper plate, but maybe better if 3 coins.

Why is it you suggest taking the lock tab off? I was going to do that this time but remembered that without a chain it's very difficult to get that nut off due to no pressure against the drive. I guess I can take it off once I get my chain on, but do you think having a washer and the lock tab on there could be in any way related to the hard pull?

L.A.B. · Jun 25, 2012

Robb2013 said:
I screwed the screw in until it totally locked up, then backed it off a turn. It's a little ambiguous in the manual

The manual instructions are not clear.

Screwing the adjuster in until all play is removed, and then backing off is the way to do it, but the manual recommendation of: "one full turn" out is usually too much and a 1/4 to 1/2 a turn out is all that should be required as you need to be aiming for around 1/16" of actuator free play (with the cable completely slackened off).

Hobot · Jun 25, 2012

The soft tab is famous for both crushing down to mess with clutch adjustment and also letting the nut back off to then run through the chain and teeth before jamming-cracking the primary cover. It can be left in place while testing but its a weak link lurking to get you later. On my second ride on Trixie Combat last spring this nut backed off and made lots of noise to point I tried to fix it on the road side but didn't have tools enough to remove foot pegs, so sealed back and limped home slow enough not to bounce the nut up into chain, but lucked out no real damage. Nipped up moderate torque against the clutch locating clip with a bit of loctite and so far holding 8000 miles of both mild commutes and recently very harsh working up to maxing out in both power and handling. Have not had to touch adjustments and no hint of clutch plates sticking after sitting up weeks to months. Prior with oil in primary would stick over night on first kick off that needed a bit of throttle in gear to break free.

You are about expert in clutch area now, so just missing the extra plates on hand to stack up for nice lever action a long time too. Btw there's a bunch of other area to face learning curves to come.

staticmoves · Jun 25, 2012

Robb2013 said:
Well, here's the latest... I went out and did all the things you all suggested. Made some shims out of newspaper and shimmed the stack so it was perfectly flush with the outside gear. As hard as I tried, I couldn't get the circlip on. I started taking my "shims" out until I finally was able to get the clip on. At this point the stack was still a few thousandths low. I hooked up the clutch cable, adjusted the ball and pulled the lever. It still was hard to pull, like harder than any clutch on any bike I ever rode, but it was MUCH easier than before. I took it all apart again and pulled the newspaper out, then hooked it up again and pulled. Was about as hard to pull as with the shims... maybe a slight bit easier, but more importantly, I felt that compound bow like reaction when I pulled it. I could actually ride the bike with the clutch like it is... not sure if I'd get used to it or not. It might have been the way I adjusted the rod and ball this time. I screwed the screw in until it totally locked up, then backed it off a turn. It's a little ambiguous in the manual, I had the idea you just snugged it up till you felt tension on the rod. What I actually did was locked up the rod then kept my finger on the actuator and backed off till there was play in there and it would jiggle back and forth. Part of it could have been that the cable hadn't been properly lubed before. Not sure. I still don't think it's right... still takes a really hard pull on the lever, but it seems like we're getting somewhere. I also notice the diaphragm has a longer throw than it did before. I know that if I stuck another steel plate in there there'd never be enough room to get the circlip in. And I'd certainly not enjoy riding the bike around town with the clutch the way it is now, although it would be rideable.

Hey Robb, I am just putting my primary together, just installed the gearbox, clutch cable and clutch rod.
If you have your basket off again you may want to try this just as a bench mark to rule out your clutch cable, ball lever cam, and clutch rod's path of resistance.
- ( cable is teflon lined and new ) So I pulled out the clutch rod and ran some #0000 steel wool over it to give it a quick polish and to rid of any unwanted build up ( I even used a little peak polish

hey what can I say I wanted it to shine. ) I payed extra attention to the basket side were I will be installing Dynos clutch rod seal. Then I smeared a skip of amsoil 80/90 EP oil on the rod and just a dab of assembly lube on the indented tip that will be in contact with the ball at the lever cam.
and after hooking up the clutch cable, I can hold my finger on the basket side of the clutch rod , pull the clutch leaver at the handle bar and return the leaver to its resting position with my finger pushing on the end of the clutch rod ( it takes a good bit of pressure with the finger, not just a simple push ).
Maybe trying this can help rule out somthing seizing up, oh and roll the clutch rod on a true surface to check for true.

Cheers 8)

lynxnsu · Jun 25, 2012

i like this
cannot get any better
10 pages how to set a clutch oooaaaahhhhhhh..........

pete.v · Jun 25, 2012

lynxnsu said:
i like this
cannot get any better
10 pages how to set a clutch oooaaaahhhhhhh..........

I was pretty involved for the first 8 page. Somethings ya just need to figure out for yourself.

Hey, hows about moving your skinny ass out of the way so we can see the rest of your bike. Or are you trying to be like SD, posting just so you can look at yourself. :mrgreen:

DogT · Jun 25, 2012

I wonder if someone has dicked with your clutch release arm? I'm just guessing at this point. Are you used to real soft clutches? Mine is a bit stiff, but nothing I can't deal with, and I'm using a standard cable, granted it's new. I had a triumph guy think it was a bit stiff.

I went to DynoDave's pages where he explains the diaphragm and pressure and all, but it's pretty hard reading and seems to wander off the subject to the Atlas arm. He also suggests adding a .080 plate which confuses me after being so stuck on the stack height. I'd like to make a drawing of the clutch with the parts and measurements, including the pressure on the clutch parts at different points in the diaphragm since he's already gone to the pain of measuring the pressure. It really bugs me.

Dave
69S

Robb2013 · Jun 25, 2012

DogT said:
I wonder if someone has dicked with your clutch release arm? I'm just guessing at this point. Are you used to real soft clutches? Mine is a bit stiff, but nothing I can't deal with, and I'm using a standard cable, granted it's new. I had a triumph guy think it was a bit stiff.

I went to DynoDave's pages where he explains the diaphragm and pressure and all, but it's pretty hard reading and seems to wander off the subject to the Atlas arm. He also suggests adding a .080 plate which confuses me after being so stuck on the stack height. I'd like to make a drawing of the clutch with the parts and measurements, including the pressure on the clutch parts at different points in the diaphragm since he's already gone to the pain of measuring the pressure. It really bugs me.

Dave
69S

I'm OK with the clutch pressure. It's harder to pull than any bike I've ever driven, but it's really not that bad now... I wouldn't even say it's uncomfortable. I started putting it all back together. Set the slack on the primary chain, reattached the clutch cable, set the pin and ball, gave it a pull... it's stiff but not hard and pulls like a compound bow... all good. So as far as that goes I'm ready to go on to other things. But something is still bothering me. For one, once the diaphragm is installed, it has a mild bow to the outside, as seen in this picture:

This doesn't bother me so much, except I put the drive chain on this morning so I could remove the tab washer and re-torque the center bolt. So now that the chain's on, and with the diaphragm and circlip in place and the clutch relaxed, the drive gear should be locked to the rear wheel.... but when I put a wrench on the lock bolt that goes outside the adjusting screw, I can turn the diaphram pretty easily. Has my brain gotten contorted somewhere during these last ten pages or does this not mean that the clutch is not fully disengaging. Center rod adjustment was tightened till it locked up, then backed off till the actuator jiggled just a little. There's a quarter inch of slack in the clutch lever before it begins to pull on the cable... Something's still wrong here or is it me?

I'm sorry if this is getting a little too involved for some of you, and I'm trying hard to not make this a spoon feeding, but I'm in kind of uncharted waters here where the manuals really don't go and would appreciate any input anyone has at this point, all things considered.

L.A.B. · Jun 25, 2012

Going by how far the adjuster is screwed in, the spring has either inverted or the clutch is seriously over-adjusted.

Hobot · Jun 25, 2012

Sounds like still a plate short plus clutch effort lightens up once running.

Robb2013 · Jun 25, 2012

L.A.B. said:
Going by how far the adjuster is screwed in, the spring has either inverted or the clutch is seriously over-adjusted.

Thanks LAB. Yeah, clutch was seriously over adjusted, which is why it was inverted and which is why it wasn't engaging the drive gear. I think it's finally time to button this up and move on. Thank you all for your input. This has been a learning experience to say the least.

pete.v · Jun 25, 2012

hobot said:
Sounds like still a plate short plus clutch effort lightens up once running.

STOP.... WAIT!
Looks like a plate too much. Your stack is too high. Not quote flat to slightly bowed is what I think works the best. Yours looks much too bowed. One plate less will also bring the adjuster screw to a "normal" looking position.

Visualize the the diaphragm is ridint against the high ridged portion of the pressure. Bringing the stack down slight will bring the diaphram in toward the center and bring the diaphram flatter yet not flat.

Its a fine line Rob. Once you have it you'll love it. Try again.

Show us a pic of the pressure plate. Just do it. It's good practice.

Hobot · Jun 25, 2012

Ugh, one plate too many? last photo I paid attention too showed too much gap between stack and the spring seating level past groove. One plate extra also confuses me on the cable slack reported. Oh well I can hardly handle my own so await the final joy combo report.

pete.v · Jun 25, 2012

Robb2013 said:
[, gave it a pull... it's stiff but not hard and pulls like a compound bow... all good.

That effect is more than like from the cam effect from the chutch arm, not all good. It is NOT the effect you want and is over stressing the diaphragm.

This is how it should feel. Trust me.

Robb2013 · Jun 25, 2012

pvisseriii said:
hobot said:

Sounds like still a plate short plus clutch effort lightens up once running.

Click to expand...

STOP.... WAIT!
Looks like a plate too much. Your stack is too high. Not quote flat to slightly bowed is what I think works the best. Yours looks much too bowed. One plate less will also bring the adjuster screw to a "normal" looking position.

Visualize the the diaphragm is ridint against the high ridged portion of the pressure. Bringing the stack down slight will bring the diaphram in toward the center and bring the diaphram flatter yet not flat.

Its a fine line Rob. Once you have it you'll love it. Try again.

Show us a pic of the pressure plate. Just do it. It's good practice.

LAB nailed it.... like a bonehead, I screwed the adjusting screw in way too much causing the diaphragm to bow out. I finally understood what to feel for when tightening that rod in with the adjusting screw. After I backed it way out everything fell into place. The diaphragm is now very slightly bowed in when relaxed and clutch pull is fine, only slightly on the hard side but very liveable... (especially since Hobit mentioned that it gets easier once engine is running). When clutch is disengaged rear wheel is locked to drive gear, pull clutch in and it spins free, and there's about 1/16" play in the actuator arm. I literally just got done buttoning it all up, but as many times as I've had it apart already, I may as well pull the cover off one more time just to confirm. Well... on second thought, it's all adjusted so nice right now, how about I just pull the cover off and take a pic of the diaphragm and adjusting screw? BRB

OK, pulled the cover off. Here's a shot of the diaphragm relaxed.

Here it is with the clutch engaged.

So is this what you'd want to be seeing in there? Would you still like to see the pressure plate? I will pull off the diaphragm again if you think the situation warrants it.

Robb2013 · Jun 25, 2012

pvisseriii said:
Robb2013 said:

[, gave it a pull... it's stiff but not hard and pulls like a compound bow... all good.

Click to expand...

That effect is more than like from the cam effect from the chutch arm, not all good. It is NOT the effect you want and is over stressing the diaphragm.

This is how it should feel. Trust me.

Not sure I understand what you're saying. Someone mentioned before that the clutch pressure should get easier as you pull the lever, not harder. That's what I was referring to. Hey, if you guys don't think this is right I want to keep doing whatever needs to be done till it's good.

pete.v · Jun 25, 2012

By George, Rob, I think youv'e got it.

What's next!

L.A.B. · Jun 25, 2012

Robb2013 said:
So is this what you'd want to be seeing in there? Would you still like to see the pressure plate? I will pull off the diaphragm again if you think the situation warrants it.

Not necessary, as I think you've cracked it, but maybe turn the adjuster lock nut around the other way?

pete.v · Jun 25, 2012

L.A.B. said:
Robb2013 said:

So is this what you'd want to be seeing in there? Would you still like to see the pressure plate? I will pull off the diaphragm again if you think the situation warrants it.

Click to expand...

Not necessary, as I think you've cracked it, but maybe turn the adjuster lock nut around the other way?

I agree, good practice or not, your good to go, except for that backwards nut. No big whoop though.

Again, Well done, Rob.

DogT · Jun 25, 2012

I missed the last page, delete.

Clutch problem

Robb2013

L.A.B.

Moderator

Hobot

staticmoves

lynxnsu

pete.v

DogT

Robb2013

L.A.B.

Moderator

Hobot

Robb2013

pete.v

Hobot

pete.v

Robb2013

Robb2013

pete.v

L.A.B.

Moderator

pete.v

DogT

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