Clutch problem
- Thread starter Robb2013
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Robb2013 said:
OK... I did that. When I turn the screw I can move the clutch handle in and out when I hold a little pressure on it. Then when I adjusted the slack out and pulled the handle I could see that piston (on the primary side that the screw bolt and set nut go through) straining and trying to go in and out. If I pulled any harder I think I'd break something. Do these clutches ever rust together? I have a feeling that might be what's happened here. I guess I should make a tool
Well it seem you have reached an impass.
1. Search the forum for a home made clutch tool.
2. Make tool
3. take clutch apart and lets see what you have there.
Depending on what you/we find will depend on how much further you/we will have to go.
(front sprocket puller, inner primary removal, etc, etc, etc.)
Study up on that workshop manual. If using a online version, print related pages.
As far as that little screw goes, just because it looks like 32 doesn't mean that is what it is. If you/we get to removing the inner primary, you/we will see if it is missing. For some reason I think not.
1. Search the forum for a home made clutch tool.
2. Make tool
3. take clutch apart and lets see what you have there.
Depending on what you/we find will depend on how much further you/we will have to go.
(front sprocket puller, inner primary removal, etc, etc, etc.)
Study up on that workshop manual. If using a online version, print related pages.
As far as that little screw goes, just because it looks like 32 doesn't mean that is what it is. If you/we get to removing the inner primary, you/we will see if it is missing. For some reason I think not.
Guido
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That little screw IS the screw to the sprocket. I'll bet you a dollar.
Looking at the clutch basket in your pic it looks like the clutch stack is all wrong. I'll even bet that there is a plate missing.
Hop can I say this? The pressure plate looks to be too concaved, the clutch Pressure plate retaining spring looks to be set wrong.
If you just got this bike in a non running condition I'll bet the PO took it apart and didn't put it back together properly judging by the little screw for the sprocket.
If it was me and I found that screw i'd be ripping it all down the the trans to make sure all parts are where they should be.
Get a manual and the proper tools. That's a must.
Of course, we are all here to help where we can.
Where are you located? Put it in your profile.
Looking at the clutch basket in your pic it looks like the clutch stack is all wrong. I'll even bet that there is a plate missing.
Hop can I say this? The pressure plate looks to be too concaved, the clutch Pressure plate retaining spring looks to be set wrong.
If you just got this bike in a non running condition I'll bet the PO took it apart and didn't put it back together properly judging by the little screw for the sprocket.
If it was me and I found that screw i'd be ripping it all down the the trans to make sure all parts are where they should be.
Get a manual and the proper tools. That's a must.
Of course, we are all here to help where we can.
Where are you located? Put it in your profile.
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Yes, just like me swallowing a fly with similar learning curves. About only thing I can think is the ball has dropped out to the crook of lever the cable end hooks too. I've gotten it re-set via the inspection hole but a bugger to fumble with then hold stable till cable inserted. If ya ever take gear box apart to have the crooked lever in hand, grind 1/16" off end makes inserting cable eaiser. I can't tell about the clutch pack but best heed those noticed it above if the ball issue don't fix it = then plan on buying-borrowing the pullers to jerk off sprockets and pull primary down to the mystery sprocket locking screw.
OK, pulled it apart. Doesn't look all that horrible except those white powdery marks near the inner gear. Inside there was a single steel plate backed by a fiber plate followed by 3 sets of steel plates interspaced between 3 fibrous plates and a permanent steel plate in the back. After looking at Old Britts diagram, it appears that the first steel plate is stuck to the first fiber plate. It shows 3 steel plates and 4 fibrous plates. Looks like it's all there. Those 1st 2 stuck together are causing the problem? I didn't want to break them apart because I wasn't sure they weren't made that way.
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Use detergent to lift most the grime out of plate pores than light sand on glass to dryness. All plates should be free to slip w/o compression applied. Welcome to Commando-doom's simple complexities. BTW the chain tension photo is scary tight to observe.
These clutches, in theory, are dry clutches. Once contaminate to what appears to be a high degree, they can never be trusted. Some will say they can be reconditioned but a fresh set will set you free and are not that expensive.
By the way, you have done very good for one days work.
For example, http://www.ebay.com/itm/Norton-Commando ... es&vxp=mtr
By the way, you have done very good for one days work.
For example, http://www.ebay.com/itm/Norton-Commando ... es&vxp=mtr
DogT
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Now that you're there, go here http://www.oldbritts.com/ob_tech.html and down to 'Commando Clutch Plate Info' to see what you have. I'd be leery of the Barnett plates unless you have the cush drive, or a 71 or newer rear wheel. If you have the 69/70 clutch, I'd stick with what you have unless you really want to change. I have 14K miles on my original 69 plates and they are still in tolerance and work great. Plus the Barnett plates take different plain plates too, the thicknesses are different for the early and late years. That's in the Old Britts article.
Read about the different clutches and make a decision. I bet you can make your current parts work fine. You need to get that friction plate off the solid plate, maybe soak it in something, I hate to say brake fluid, but I've never had any problems getting oil/grease/whatever off the friction plates, they seem to work with oil or not, at least mine. I just clean them with carb cleaner or mineral spirits or petrol. Heck, some people even sand them on concrete.
Welcome to the Commando learning curve, there is an end to it and every time you go down the road, you'll be thinking about all these little details.
What keeps it from opening? Not sure, I wonder if your diaphragm is broken over the wrong way, that's been known to happen, I didn't look at it that closely. The springs should be pointing towards the inside or clutch side, not the outside and when you pull the clutch lever the rod should be pushing the stud towards the outside to release the clutch plates. The springs on the diaphragm hold the clutch plates together tight with no pressure on the rod.
Dave
69S
Read about the different clutches and make a decision. I bet you can make your current parts work fine. You need to get that friction plate off the solid plate, maybe soak it in something, I hate to say brake fluid, but I've never had any problems getting oil/grease/whatever off the friction plates, they seem to work with oil or not, at least mine. I just clean them with carb cleaner or mineral spirits or petrol. Heck, some people even sand them on concrete.
Welcome to the Commando learning curve, there is an end to it and every time you go down the road, you'll be thinking about all these little details.
What keeps it from opening? Not sure, I wonder if your diaphragm is broken over the wrong way, that's been known to happen, I didn't look at it that closely. The springs should be pointing towards the inside or clutch side, not the outside and when you pull the clutch lever the rod should be pushing the stud towards the outside to release the clutch plates. The springs on the diaphragm hold the clutch plates together tight with no pressure on the rod.
Dave
69S
As far as the ball and the actuating arm goes, there are two curves in that armature, I have it set so the clutch release roller goes in the front curve and the ball fits nicely in the back curve. The ball is touching the rod. Which by the way, the rod looks like new, no wear marks either side and a tiny dimple on the actuator side. I mic'd the friction plates and they all came in between .141 to .143, so they don't have much wear on them. I got the stuck friction plate off of the pressure plate. Got a fingernail behind it with a little pressure and it slowly started to give. Once I got it pulled back a quarter inch or so I was able to get a putty knife in there and worked it around. I guess I'll clean everything in carb cleaner tomorrow, put it all back together and see what happens. If it still is stuck it's got to be something on the actuator side. I have to say, I've been laid off for a few months so I've got lots of time to mess with this, (and not lots of money unfortunately) but as big a pain in the ass as it can get, I am enjoying rebirthing this thing and giving it new life.
pvisseriii said:How far was the clutch rod sticking out of the end of the mainshaft clutch side.
You did say you had the ball bearing in place on the clutch actuating arm side didn't you?
How do the ends of the clutch rod look?
Probably about an inch to an inch and a half.
Guido
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Robb2013 said:
The disks should be .145" new. The metal plates are .080" Yours are fine except for all the oil.
What I was referring to was the stack. It's when you put all the disks in the basket and see if the are flush with the top of the splines in the basket.
On my 74 850 I have 5 friction and it still needed another .080" metal drive disk to bring it to the right stack height.
As for removing the drum (basket), the front sprocket has to be released too as they come off together.
The front sprocket is on a tapered shaft and can be a bear to remove sometimes.
But behind the drum, on the main shaft is a small circlip which should be looked at for it's condition.
Once you've do all that then you reached as far as you can go for that side.
So check your stack.
DogT
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If you look at my last picture, you will see the gb mainshaft coming out of the gb. At the end of the splines, towards the gb you will see a groove and a circlip. You have probably already pulled off the spacers, so it should be visible. Get several of these circlips, they are not re-usable, and actually I think pv has a replacement for it that works better. It's out of an 850 GB as I remember. The original circlip is a weak point and the factory recommended 80 ft/lbs on the nut that presses on that clip. 40 is plenty and then use blue loctite on the nut.
You can also put a washer between the circlip and the gb to keep the bushing from coming out of the mainshaft and eating itself on that circlip like mine did.
Yeah, that clutch release arm has a detent in it that operates the ball/rod and it's critical to make it work right. It's hard to explain, but once you feel it and get it right, you'll know. You really need to have the cable and clutch lever on to make it right, you can't operate it by hand.
We'll get into stack height later, mine could take another .080 plate next to the pressure plate to make the stack height come up to the retainer clip groove. You'll be able to see that when you put the pressure on the tool to take off the diaphragm. Just make sure your retainer clip goes in fully when you re-assemble the clutch pack.
Dave
69S
You can also put a washer between the circlip and the gb to keep the bushing from coming out of the mainshaft and eating itself on that circlip like mine did.
Yeah, that clutch release arm has a detent in it that operates the ball/rod and it's critical to make it work right. It's hard to explain, but once you feel it and get it right, you'll know. You really need to have the cable and clutch lever on to make it right, you can't operate it by hand.
We'll get into stack height later, mine could take another .080 plate next to the pressure plate to make the stack height come up to the retainer clip groove. You'll be able to see that when you put the pressure on the tool to take off the diaphragm. Just make sure your retainer clip goes in fully when you re-assemble the clutch pack.
Dave
69S
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