certified quarter-mile time.

Matt Spencer said:
Oh Dear .
Click to expand...


Maybe you should let everyone know what direct experience you have relating to the use of Norton and Kawasaki motors for competition purposes? The Norton motors were very successfully used in sidecar MX up until the time when most racers decided to use Jap power units, purely and simply due to them being far more reliable and less costly to run.

Guys I used to work with used to race in Europe, and were paid start money and prize money for placing in races. Trouble with racing a Norton powered outfit was that if things went wrong (which seemed to be quite often) then the weekends racing could very easily cost money, rather than be covered by start and prize money/

This led to most sidecar racers opting for Yamaha twin power, and as these motors had been properly designed they were reliable even when stretched to nearly 1000cc for race use.
 
The XTs were reliable in the States too . . . once theyd relaced the Cases , C'shaft , Barrels and heads. And a few other bits . Even the A65s blew those off .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PIcSbAFMDg

certified quarter-mile time.


Manx Nortons were real slow . this was about as slow as a 61 Manx in a 56 Frame , being thrashed by a experianced proponent . The only thing was it didnt weigh 300 lbs , unless im misstaken .
So makeing a meal of a pair of TZ 350s in a Auckland Season Championship race was understandable . Id put it down to youd have to be an idiot to run streamlining on the club circuit . You only
hit 105 on the straight .
As the frame was experimental , and though gone over by a professional welder , the welding experimental I wasnt to destruction test it past that speed on the G.P. circuit , so the rideing at the
faster parts there was more exploratory . Pavlovic was the Z1 rider I bumped into a few times there , in the paddock . :D . Basically , his advice was ' Dont ride a Z1 ' , though there wasnt really
anything going in 81 he would recomend , other than that the GSes were a little more stable , if still overweight . :lol: 8)

Pity I didnt stay with it and follow the development plan . Nothing would get into a corner as hard as that . Presuably 50 HP , as its a genuine ' Race ' engine . The Best .
 
Matt Spencer said:
The XTs were reliable in the States too . . . once theyd relaced the Cases , C'shaft , Barrels and heads. And a few other bits . Even the A65s blew those off .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PIcSbAFMDg
Click to expand...


I think you better stick to outlining just how quick your sluggish old road bike is, as you dont seem to have much grasp of the area of competition where the Commando motor enjoyed more success than anywhere else.
 
Matt Spencer said:
Oh Dear .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_triple

A nervous race horse with rickets , a nervous twitch , and a Drinking problem . Its evident your mates riders didnt respect the redline on the Nortons .

Recalling being pillioned by the kwickersaki maniac ( hed been used as ballast on the Bonneville & Commando , the later with the pillion footrests dirctly on the alloy plates , he developed a nervous twitch
dragging them 7 his roman sandles cranked over at 80 . Ive met stronger nerved people , though only at 50 on smooth seal , yougngh Henry just moved his bare feet in rubber thongs fuyrther in the pegs .

Haveing a point to prove , the well tuned H2 was full wellie , Lurch , grope ( for a gear ) Lurch , repeat , ditto . Undulateing roads were its undooing , the ' knotty ' handling meant it used most of the drive
tying the frame / suspension in knots . Definately didnt have the ability to be laid over till the pegs ground , at speed , and steadily wind through the bends and brows . More stop- start - lurch- lean- lurch-
yang- twiddle- groan- yang-yang-oops- yang- weave-lurch-yang . e.t.c.

While the Katana mayve had more haul than the Commando , the holes in the powerband supremely evident two up , along with the excess of time it was inadviseable to overtax the chassis further , the
kwakersiki mayve held it in lurches under power , but drop off at ea gear shift . IF the road was flat , smooth , and broard . Motorcycle Maniacs got a 12.2 out of a Combat , late 72 , by running 19T on the
Trans , seeing 17 was an option , or going to 22 and running in three gears , its no issue. Seeing a 5 spped was an option , with Equal gears a Combat or non emmisions 850 will match the quacker in the
Quater . Though haveing valve gear , a pilot capeable of reading a tachometer might be advised .

As far as twisty roads go , until the H2s rear shocks have been Girling or Koni updated , its in the ditch. Before you start looking at undulation or camber changes .

All very well on a Track to run W.F.O. and the devil take the hindmost , but try it on the road and the life insurance of the rider is liable to be called into effect .


" motorcyclist ' in America ran a top ten test after the Z1 came out , featureing both those and another eight contenders .They certainly didnt consider the H2 the better bike except for Zang and drinking habits .
Essentiallyit was a mobile air pump for consumeing fuel , and at 15 to 25 to the gallon , theyred be something entirely awrey if it Didnt produce a bit of Horsepower . Unfortunately , it was no longer legal to market mobile mallaca sets under impending regulations .

As far as ' Highly Strung Race Horse ' goes , Idve thought that dscrbed the Commando to a T , pre electric foot .Pot bellied Nag or Camel wouldve been more fitting to a spitting belching directionally unstable
perpetrator of the Fuel Crisis . It didnt leak oil , it spewed it out the back , or siezed if it wasnt .

Just Remember " One Finger on the Clutch ' , the two stroke riders mantra . Check all those raceing pictures . RELIABLE . ? Who put these commandos together you whinew about , anyway . :P :twisted: :roll: :oops: :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

Aside from BS posted on the net, I worked at a Kaw main dealer for 3 years, and the owner of the shop raced an H2 MX outfit............strangely not a single mechanical problem with either H1 or H2, but plenty with the Norton motors fitted to the outfits raced by others working at the shop at the same time.
 
Stock Chassis in The M-X , or Wasp . ? :roll: :wink:
Someone was describeing something as the ' Worlds First Self Immolateing Engine ' the other day . They got it wrong . That was the TX 750 . :lol:
 
Matt Spencer said:
The XTs were reliable in the States too . . . once theyd relaced the Cases , C'shaft , Barrels and heads. And a few other bits . Even the A65s blew those off .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PIcSbAFMDg

certified quarter-mile time.


Manx Nortons were real slow . this was about as slow as a 61 Manx in a 56 Frame , being thrashed by a experianced proponent . The only thing was it didnt weigh 300 lbs , unless im misstaken .
So makeing a meal of a pair of TZ 350s in a Auckland Season Championship race was understandable . Id put it down to youd have to be an idiot to run streamlining on the club circuit . You only
hit 105 on the straight .
As the frame was experimental , and though gone over by a professional welder , the welding experimental I wasnt to destruction test it past that speed on the G.P. circuit , so the rideing at the
faster parts there was more exploratory . Pavlovic was the Z1 rider I bumped into a few times there , in the paddock . :D . Basically , his advice was ' Dont ride a Z1 ' , though there wasnt really
anything going in 81 he would recomend , other than that the GSes were a little more stable , if still overweight . :lol: 8)

Pity I didnt stay with it and follow the development plan . Nothing would get into a corner as hard as that . Presuably 50 HP , as its a genuine ' Race ' engine . The Best .
Click to expand...

Maybe Wayne Gardener would have had more success riding a Norton with 70bhp rather than his Kawasaki with 160bhhp?
 
Matt Spencer said:
Less likely to break his neck , anyway . We notice he's Not rideing a KZ 750 twin . Not that anyone does these days . :? :lol:

http://www.armbell.com/kz400/index.php? ... orum=kz400

Here you go , This ones a Real ' grand Prix ' item . Not sure about the pronunciation . :(
Click to expand...


Exactly..............riding a slug is far safer that something much much quicker! Only problem being is that slugs dont win races!
 
Matt Spencer said:
Oh Dear .
Click to expand...

The Wikipedia is always good for a chuckle, Matt. Many things are either misleading or completely false. It takes considerable expertise to separate fact from fiction.

Wiki says,“A stock H2 was rated at 12.0 secs for the quarter mile.” An interesting claim and a major milestone in drag racing but they do not attribute the claim to any reliable source.

Here is the reality, “...In 1977 the KZ grew up...The following year Kawasaki introduced the Z-1 R. It was a Café'version of the 1000 and was the first stock motorcycle to turn an under-12-second elapsed time in the quarter-mile...The Z-1 Classic...posts a 12.34 quarter-mile ET...about average for a Kawasaki 1000...faster than the 1976 LTD; but it ought to be, displacing an extra 112cc. It's slower than the 1977 1000, which turned a blazing 12.06 quarter-mile...” Posted at http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/ ... lassic.htm

It was a Kawasaki that first managed 12.00 but it was a 1000 with fuel injection. There can be only one first and that was it. Its record was short lived, however, because a Yamaha 1100 soon beat it if memory serves.

My memory can’t be too bad seeing as another site records, “The Z1-R...Our bike did the standing-start quarter mile in 12.13 seconds at 109.6mph, making it second only to the Yamaha 1100 on the list of all-time fastest accelerators.”
Read more: http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/class ... z1iB353iOB

Wiki says, “H2 became the undisputed king of the streets, even beating legendary muscle cars of the era such as the Plymouth Hemi Cuda.”

Unless the Barracuda had aluminum body panels it should have run around the mid-thirteens. There were several big bikes that were quicker than that. What kind of an “expert” does not know this?

The Wiki even contradicts itself on the same page. “The entire S series of motorcycles used breaker point ignition, which was more reliable than the early CDI ignition and much cheaper to repair or replace” and later, ”For a while Kawasaki even dropped the CDI and reverted to the cheaper contact breaker ignition in order to keep the price under $1,000.”

Yes I remember the black boxes and how they went pop and the bike was dead. They were expensive little items too.

Then the Wiki “expert” demonstrates no knowledge of marketing whatsoever, “The 500 cc H1 also benefitted from the marketing genius of Kawasaki...The cost of a production of a two stroke engine was significantly less than that of a four stroke engine...Kawasaki managed to keep the list price for the H1 under...$1,000 ...Competing bikes...were over $1,200...”

It doesn’t take any kind of “genius” to sell a product for less than the competition. It does take some good marketing skills to sell the same darn thing for more than twice the price like those pump-up running shoes.

The Wiki article is so bad it almost seems like parody.
 
Carbonfibre said:
Maybe Wayne Gardener would have had more success riding a Norton with 70bhp rather than his Kawasaki with 160bhhp?
Click to expand...

Didn't we see Wayne on Manx Nortons and Matchy G50s at Goodwood recently, and loving it ?

Barry Sheene similarly went Manxes/ G50 Matchy for a while there, and had some ding-dong battles....
 
Talking to Arron Slight , he said the F-750 was much nicer to ride than the grand prix Hondas . They wobbled & frightened.
The Trident was stable . But I dont suppose he knows how to ride , either ? :roll: Winkers . :wink:
 
Murray B said:
Matt Spencer said:
Oh Dear .
Click to expand...

The Wikipedia is always good for a chuckle, Matt. Many things are either misleading or completely false. It takes considerable expertise to separate fact from fiction.

Wiki says,“A stock H2 was rated at 12.0 secs for the quarter mile.” An interesting claim and a major milestone in drag racing but they do not attribute the claim to any reliable source.

Here is the reality, “...In 1977 the KZ grew up...The following year Kawasaki introduced the Z-1 R. It was a Café'version of the 1000 and was the first stock motorcycle to turn an under-12-second elapsed time in the quarter-mile...The Z-1 Classic...posts a 12.34 quarter-mile ET...about average for a Kawasaki 1000...faster than the 1976 LTD; but it ought to be, displacing an extra 112cc. It's slower than the 1977 1000, which turned a blazing 12.06 quarter-mile...” Posted at http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/ ... lassic.htm

It was a Kawasaki that first managed 12.00 but it was a 1000 with fuel injection. There can be only one first and that was it. Its record was short lived, however, because a Yamaha 1100 soon beat it if memory serves.

My memory can’t be too bad seeing as another site records, “The Z1-R...Our bike did the standing-start quarter mile in 12.13 seconds at 109.6mph, making it second only to the Yamaha 1100 on the list of all-time fastest accelerators.”
Read more: http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/class ... z1iB353iOB

Wiki says, “H2 became the undisputed king of the streets, even beating legendary muscle cars of the era such as the Plymouth Hemi Cuda.”

Unless the Barracuda had aluminum body panels it should have run around the mid-thirteens. There were several big bikes that were quicker than that. What kind of an “expert” does not know this?

The Wiki even contradicts itself on the same page. “The entire S series of motorcycles used breaker point ignition, which was more reliable than the early CDI ignition and much cheaper to repair or replace” and later, ”For a while Kawasaki even dropped the CDI and reverted to the cheaper contact breaker ignition in order to keep the price under $1,000.”

Yes I remember the black boxes and how they went pop and the bike was dead. They were expensive little items too.

Then the Wiki “expert” demonstrates no knowledge of marketing whatsoever, “The 500 cc H1 also benefitted from the marketing genius of Kawasaki...The cost of a production of a two stroke engine was significantly less than that of a four stroke engine...Kawasaki managed to keep the list price for the H1 under...$1,000 ...Competing bikes...were over $1,200...”

It doesn’t take any kind of “genius” to sell a product for less than the competition. It does take some good marketing skills to sell the same darn thing for more than twice the price like those pump-up running shoes.

The Wiki article is so bad it almost seems like parody.
Click to expand...

The fact that the number of H1/H2's sold in the US alone, certainly greatly affected the future of the Brit motorcycle industry, might be worthy of consideration here?
 
Matt Spencer said:
Talking to Arron Slight , he said the F-750 was much nicer to ride than the grand prix Hondas . They wobbled & frightened.
The Trident was stable . But I dont suppose he knows how to ride , either ? :roll: Winkers . :wink:
Click to expand...

Indeed......................riding a slug is far safer that something much much quicker! Only problem being is that slugs dont win races!
 
Takes one to know one , your metal lethurgy is moribund .

Cant even tell us if a sprocketll go on a shaft drive kwaker ,
Figure its not save , as a daily rider on real roads , anyway .
Reprocessed scrap , in the main .
The mains may be the only bit that isnt , along with a few shafts .
Pretty Clever , refinement tecniques for recycled materials have evolved mightilly .
 
Matt Spencer said:
Takes one to know one , your metal lethurgy is moribund .

Cant even tell us if a sprocketll go on a shaft drive kwaker ,
Figure its not save , as a daily rider on real roads , anyway .
Reprocessed scrap , in the main .
The mains may be the only bit that isnt , along with a few shafts .
Pretty Clever , refinement tecniques for recycled materials have evolved mightilly .
Click to expand...


Just the type of thinking which led the Brit motorcycle industry to the position its in today.....................
 
Your the one that worked for them . The prime reason people baulked at buying them were they wernt sure they were screwed together right , or someone had ' forgotten something ' makeing it ,

There reputation appart from Quality Control ( slack workers . Union Morons ) was unsulied .

The last New Commando sold in Auckland was bought on Condition their mechanics WOULDNT touch it . Cash . Discount for no warrenty . Massive relief to get it clear of the Amatures .( dealers mechanics )

Coffs Harbour and the Mech. ( English ) er , as long as it goes , it doesnt really matter . Most Professsional . Yes . An Unsullied Reputation . Unionists shipped to NZ bankrupted the unions in the 70s

They could have sold as many Triumphs as they made there . But Muldoon , as well as detroying the Boat Building industry , and tackling unions striking for two years over the wrong tea bags ,
and absorbing the entire union funds for their sustanance , Changed the deposit on Motorcycles from 20 % to 60 % , due to the horrendous carnage rate on the new fangled Japanese machines.
CHECK the road toll statistics for NZ for 1973 , 30 % deaths are motorcyclists . KAWASKI riders predominant amougst them . Blathering Dunderhead isnt a CRITISISM , its an OBSEVATION .

There was a saying or two about ' poms ' , sniveling was a common one . A radio station had a ' bash a pom day ' , they were sick of the bone idle blow hards . The Commonwealth was what pulled england through the war. German propaganda stated the English were bleeding the provinces . It wasnt an erronous statement . If you study the Figures . But your type make Hitler look like a Genius . :shock:

The further toward that side of the planet the most of thekm remain , the more peacefull this place'll be . :D Peace on earth , good will to all men . ? Yes , as long as hes got his ale everything can go to pot .
Is any of the new ' Triumphs actually manufactured in the U.K. , or are tey throwntogether there & the stickers applied .



Mr Fallons book , its hard to find a place where they dont fall to bits , or scare the pilots to desperate measures in the early 70s . The only speed a H2 steered safely was 1/2 speed . READ IT . The DEATH from KAWASKIS almost had motorcycles restriced to a point of being BANNEd , if they could . Amougst non motorcyle leaning political groups . LIKE THEY SCARPERED UNIONS .Because they were Sh.t . , Sorry !
 
I see...............the reason the Brit bike industry failed wasnt actually due to them producing bikes whose basic design dated back to the 30/40s, but due to the unions preventing these museum pieces being made in large enough numbers? This is a bit like saying buyers are likely to prefer Model T Fords over 240Z's if enough model T's can be made to satisfy demand.
 
Have you ever had a Kwaker 750 2 stroke with a few miles on it that doesnt ( or isnt ) idling . Pilots intent on the near horizon obvious , at a awkward cross roads intersection .
Ive waited a bit after the cacacohponys gone and the smokes cleared to continue my appreciation of a fine day at times .
The general insability of the pilot etc makeing a tangle near inecvitable if you chose to engage the device .

Not everyone things there Grand Prix Freddie and Equates smoking exits from traffic lights , as ' Performance ' . Tastes Vary .

Strange the recorded speeds for triples are faster for daytona 73 for the 4 strokes . Farmer Browns XT 500 Wouldnt do the Ton , but hed had it two years and cut a fair millage . After a year or two and a
similar milage on the Bonneville , the pre units are b it more stable at speed on gravle , he appologised for tradeing it on a trident . Gave niether much quater . The oversize pipes on Ea were flattened on the left from the hump in the dip on the sealed road to the highway . Most people'd back off and lift it through there . not our young Davey . Adequate weight and mustle to ignore it . On principle .

He had any pommy motorcyclist bewidered and disbelieving , The 50 mile trip to towns a third on Gravle , . First service on the trident ( used bike ), out of Town its sit on 125 , That covers the highway in ten minutes
Through down the coast , and out through the hills , an average of 90 mph on the gravle and over 100 mph overall . Obviously U f...ing believable . youd have to be f...ing mad .

30 minute trip . unfortunately , he phoned Home before he left . No disputeing this one . Youd be laughted at as a fool . ( His mother included :shock: ) :oops: Oh No " Lunch is on the Table At . . ."He rang At . :oops

Lift earlyer with a 8 a side rugby team between matches , Im Hitching , in a Mk III Zepher would indulge you in the driveing tecnique in the area in those days . W F O . Astounding what inertia a machine has at those speeds , and the times , point to point when traffics light . Maybe only one or two cars once youre of the Higway . Long as you know the Times the Milk Tankers run , then theres only the school busses and Cattle Trucks . The odd top dressing Truck . Cows , Cow shit . Stray Stock . farm Dogs ( go for the heals ). The Odd Pheasant at headlamp hight , or the odd stray round .

Farmer'd know the runs though . Youre wouldnt get me to try those averages through the gorge & into the hills , 90 + on the back of tthe Bonneville , clay & gravle roads , banks , gutters and drop offs ,
one twitch or iota of unpredictability would have you embedded in the sceneary fairly permanantly .Shooting S bend kinks downhill as pillion near the ton , Banks ditches and barbed wire fences as neigbours
is about as ' intresting ' as those rowdy 2 strokes . But just more peacefull .

We call this progress ? & no , the Command I kept off the Gravle , but you can set em up like the early ones with the 3:oo on the front , they steer well , WHy , Young Murry . . . Er . we wont GO there . . .
 
If these old museum pieces performed so much better than the Jap machines, its pretty astonishing that those making them went to the wall and the Japs are still in business?
 
An aspect being missed is the influence major investors and Int'l banksters had on which nations got favorable support. There is some long history of European and UK banksters in Asian affairs. US banksters were the first to pump Japans industry back up then UK banksters. Japan also declared economic war on the rest of the world with home grown think tanks that cooperated with globalist think tanks to jump ahead of cameras, then electronics then small vehicles. This hardly ever involved fair play but bribes and fraud and taking advantage of the work force with types of mind control for work ethic that made workers self policing to their disadvantage.

As far as superior engineering goes, UK was left with pre WWII power plants and tooling but boy howdy they had the chassis and handling down. I went through some great depression 5 yrs learning to re-build a Combat and in interim getting me a balloon tyred sports bike then taking a corner school, to cause me to think I'd be stuck with a quaint Harley like antique that could only wave the hot shots by, as no way to hang with them in speed and handling games. Not No More, now I see all them moderns as corner cripples and my hobby this decade is proving it and wiping smirks off superior attitudes.

BTW Matt, I see riding THE Grit as a type of dry land water skiing, once you get up on a hard plane speed wise, whooWhee!
 

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