Boyer Electronic ignition

Does anyone know how the advance curves compare for the Boyer MK4, Microdigital and Micro Power?

RoadScholar said:

Ashley, I'm not trying to rain on your parade; your devotion to the Joe Hunt mag your Commando wears is legendary and has always been informative and, clearly, your implementation of the JH mag gives you a solution that justified the cost and the freedom to worry about something else. In that vein we are brothers.

As a stand alone ignition system, independent of the motorcycle's electrical system, a magneto is in a class by itself and a staple for piston driven aircraft; quite an endorsement.

A new magneto, however, is 3 to 4 times more expensive than an entry Boyer or Pazon (others mentioned as well). A mag sticks out so far, when cam driven, that it begs to be knocked off; do owners of accessory mags' (mounted to the timing cover) ever wonder, while in decreasing radius right, how close that mag is to kissing the tarmac? If you answered yes then you have compromised your safety.

Given that a lot of Commandos prowling the roads today have OE wiring harnesses a new mag might be considered cheap insurance for getting home when the electrics melt down. Consider, however, that a new harness and a low-end EI are less expensive than a new mag.

The idea of a mag which doesn't care about battery condition very much appeals to me; if there was a safe place to mount one on a Commando where it would get adequate cooling and have a decent automatic advance I'd buy 2.

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This is a good reply and I do understand what you say, but your main issue of so close to the tar when lean over is a non issue to me and if you do go down and yes I have been down twice before fixing my stock brake failings and the JH has servived both times with only a cover damaged, they are cheap to replace, going down will there not be more damage done to your bike, exhaust systems, foot pegs, paint jobs etc etc, so really the idea is to stay upright.
Yes EI are cheaper but read the forum and see how many have failed and I am not going to say the JH will never fail but they are simple and very reliable and parts are cheap, my bike has minuim wiring 4 main power wires and most of my electrics are under my seat and I run my power straight off the Altenator using a battery eliminator, the head light is not the best using this set up but I don't ride it much at night I have my other bikes for that but it will get my home at night if need to and have so a many of times.
If you want a ignition system that produces one of the best sparks around the JH is one of the reasons I went this way and having a old 2 rare earth JH on my 81 Triumph Thunderbird for over 9 years and clocked up 250k kms without any problems has proved how good they are and one kick every time, it just kept going.
About $840 US is expensive but worth every cent in my opinion, I have had 2 EI fail me over the years and once 100 mile from home, I have also had stock wiring short out and caused a small fire and melted wiring that got me stuck on the road, so add up 2 failed EI and the cost adds up, I have well over 50k miles on my Norton JH and I haven't touched it yet just pull the top cover off it during maintenance just to put a few drops of oil on the felt to lube the points cam, I haven't even touched the points yet, but I have a tune up kits sitting in the workshop when I do.
I have set my JH up with soft mounting bolts and if I did go down hard on that side be better to break the bolts and let the JH slid away from the bike, but so far have not gone down hard for this to happen.
Yes when you know a product works so well of course I am going to tell everyone about it and I am not twisting everyone's arm to go out and buy one and after owning my Norton for over 43 years now I only want the best for it, this is my HOT ROD and the JH is only one of many improvements that I have made to it in the last 10 years when I had the money and after 43 years of reliable service to me it deserved every cent I spent on it without changing to much on it, still starts first kick every time, still has a old worn out pain job and only let me down in all them years from a failed EI and a broken rear chain where I had to trailer it home, well once in the back of a Station Wagon lol.
My Norton has always been my every day ride but now it semi retired just like me I have 2 modern Triumph Thruxton's and the 1200 is now my everyday ride so now having my Norton sit for a few weeks at a time and when I do pull it out I know its still going to fire up on one kick all depends on how good my fuel is still not worrying about a flat battery.
So I will preach about how good my JH Maggie has been to me, what you run on your bike is your thing, we all spend our hard eurn money on our toys and I am no different, but I will use what I know works best for me and stick by in what I use.

Ashley

APRRSV said:

Does anyone know how the advance curves compare for the Boyer MK4, Microdigital and Micro Power?

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I believe Dyno Dave has posted a graph of the Boyer advance curves previously.

Esmerela said:

I believe Dyno Dave has posted a graph of the Boyer advance curves previously.

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Thanks Esme. I'll search.

Ed

APRRSV said:

Does anyone know how the advance curves compare for the Boyer MK4, Microdigital and Micro Power?

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If you are street riding it really doesn't matter as, virtually, all the price point offerings hit full advance between 3000 and 3400 RPM. You may be at a lower RPM while cruising or in traffic where you might gets a few more ergs from a different advance curve, but so what?

Advance curves are important to individuals that race their Nortons who need to optimize power output as far up and down the RPM range as they can. Take, for example, motoring into a very tight hairpin and needing to use a lower gear because you had to gear the bike for the 1/2 mile straight that the hairpin exits to. Paying attention to your advance curve below 3500 RPM can mean the difference between a podium finish or a lonely warm beer.

For street riding you want a curve that will help you start the engine without breaking your ankle and with enough advance to match the factory specs; anything in between is meaningless...

Best

IMO, the best improvement over an analog Boyer is OEM ignition points/AAU!!

Hey, we all base our opinions on our own experience and that's mine. The Boyer was such a PITA that I went back to the OEM system in '06. The points would still be there had the Trispark not become available in '08 or thereabouts and if my trispark ever fails (been in place for 11 years now operating flawlessly), I'll go back to points/AAU.

The only downside of points/AAU is the need for periodic maintenance which is almost a non-issue in the scheme of Norton maintenance and it has a much better advance curve for the engine than the Boyer.

I don't get the magneto thing at all but I also know most folks would disagree with me re points AAU! The nice thing is it's your bike and you get to do what you want!

Craig said:

“Boyer mk4” analog ,no troubles , easy setup , not so sensitive to low battery conditions as earlier types of Boyer, not too costly .... so far so good ....

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Nothing wrong with the newer Boyer MK 1V. Use it on my MK 111 and it's affordable and great. The anti-backfire device has never engaged with it and it understands a lower battery situation.

Thank you Road scholar, Mexico Mike and Torontonian for your replies.

The reason that I asked the question was primarily concerning the low rpm advance. But, I was/am concerned about the high rpm advance.

From looking at Dynodave's advance curves on his Atlantic Green website, it appears that the advance for the Boyer Micro Power goes far beyond the recommended advance for Commando's at rpm's above 5000.

Maybe Dave can comment.

Thanks,
Ed

So you set the maximum advance to line up with the timimg you want when the system is at its upper limit.

APRRSV said:

Thank you Road scholar, Mexico Mike and Torontonian for your replies.

The reason that I asked the question was primarily concerning the low rpm advance. But, I was/am concerned about the high rpm advance.

From looking at Dynodave's advance curves on his Atlantic Green website, it appears that the advance for the Boyer Micro Power goes far beyond the recommended advance for Commando's at rpm's above 5000.

Maybe Dave can comment.

Thanks,
Ed

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I can't comment much on higher R.P.M. ' because I never push things above 5000. I'm a torque lover so my shifts are between 2000 and 4000 tops. Mind you I've had my throttle stick and she screamed out at 7000 before switching off and coasting to a stop. No damages and eager to do it . Boyer MK 11. A while back.

MexicoMike said:

The only downside of points/AAU is the need for periodic maintenance which is almost a non-issue in the scheme of Norton maintenance and it has a much better advance curve for the engine than the Boyer.

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Correct!
Properly set up...
1. easy to start.
2.(with correct spring preload) NO advance til about 1250 = way better cold to hot oil transition makes for steadier idle.
3. plain reserved straight curve up to full advance. Generally much less pinging at more open throttle at lower rpms.

The Mark IV Boyer is more tolerant of low voltages than the Mark III. You can just buy the MK IV box seperately. Just unplug and replug to replace, no need to go through the hassle of pulling the rotor and cheaper too. I'd still put a timing light on it just to be sure. I went this route on my Trident because small current drops that I couldn't locate were giving the MKIII box trouble. Put the MK IV box in and no problems.

htown16 said:

The Mark IV Boyer is more tolerant of low voltages than the Mark III. You can just buy the MK IV box seperately. Just unplug and replug to replace, no need to go through the hassle of pulling the rotor and cheaper too. I'd still put a timing light on it just to be sure. I went this route on my Trident because small current drops that I couldn't locate were giving the MKIII box trouble. Put the MK IV box in and no problems.

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also true with Pazon.

... with regard to kickback protection.

htown16 said:

The Mark IV Boyer is more tolerant of low voltages than the Mark III.

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jan nelder said:

... with regard to kickback protection.

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apples/oranges/pineapples

apples-kicker commando/any brit bike if the battery is dying and below approx 10.5, you risk kickback by an analog MK3. Shame on you, it's been known for a LONG time...( Jan 2001)

oranges-Analog MK3 boyer/ MKIII E-Start Commando while on the button, typically drags down the battery voltage to the spark scatter zone to well below its potential to provide adequate current.

pineapple-contributing to MKIII E-start problem is it's under performing 180watt(single phase) @ higher RPM, fails to keep the battery fully charged... Tall rear sprocket + inadequate quantity of high RPM running. Dying battery is no help...

jan nelder said:

... with regard to kickback protection.

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Would a DC DC converter help here?
I have one fitted to my commando it's 8 to 40 volts input and 12volt output
I read about them on here it seems to work well with my electric start

... the reason magnetos are such a standard for aircraft engines is because of the deadly consequences of an ignition failure with airplanes. Once you, a few thousand pounds of metal, and tanks full of fuel are more than 50 feet off the earth, ignition failure has much greater consequences than just needing your buddy to come pick you up on the side of the road with his van. So the simplicity of magnetos and lack of any external electrical failure issues negatively effect spark production makes a magneto the best choice for an AIRPLANE...

In the 41 years of owning my commando, My bike only failed me once when I ran it out of fuel. I had points originally, then switched to the original boyer black box for many years, then I upgraded to the microdigital red box somewhere along the line. I've never had igntion failure in all those years. Having zero boyer failures for 40 years makes me a fan of them.

WTBS, A higher compression commando engine doesn't kick start easily. There's definitely a learning curve to getting the bike to start on the a first kick most every time. Kickbacks are never entirely ruled out with a boyer.

Part of the problem with judging ignition systems is they don't function at their best without correct carburation, so my impression of points includes the fact that I really didn't know all that much about amal carbs during the time that I used them. My carbs are set up well now, and I've had 40 years to learn a good technique for kick starting my commando. With zero ignition failures I'm not complaining about my boyer, but no doubt the kickback thing is a flaw...

A Lucas motorcycle magneto isn’t the best choice for aeroplane ignition.

Don’t make that mistake!

FWIW, there's a good bit of exploration re using electronic ignitions/maps for piston-engined planes. There is at least one currently being used in some specific categories and the FAA is scheduled to do certification tests on a general EI system. Lycoming is hoping to get approval on an EI that they want to use and being the primary U.S. piston engine supplier for light aircraft, that would be a big deal.

OTOH, I admit the concept of a "self-generating" ignition on an airplane is more comforting than, say, a Lucas electrical system...

To be FAIR, I have heard many responsible 'experts' say that current Lucas systems are excellent and that the complaints of which we are all familiar are based on vehicle requirements to Lucas that the components be inexpensive.

Just like we all complain about Chinese quality, the reality is that they can (and do) make components as good as anybody else can but the retailers want the cheapest items in order to make the biggest profit.

Torontonian said:

I can't comment much on higher R.P.M. ' because I never push things above 5000. I'm a torque lover so my shifts are between 2000 and 4000 tops. Mind you I've had my throttle stick and she screamed out at 7000 before switching off and coasting to a stop. No damages and eager to do it . Boyer MK 11. A while back.

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I run one of the first types of Boyer with methanol fuel on low comp. If I lower the needles one notch in my carbs, I get the cough. And I use Mikuni 6D needles which ad the leanest which can be used in Mk2 Amals. I usually try to change up before the revs reach 7000, and I often see 7,500 on an up-change. The Boyer never misses. I used magnetos on my Triton for many years and on at least three occasions, I went race meetings and had problems with the magneto which cost me my entry fees and travel expenses as well as the cost of a rebuild of the unit. Magnetos are good if you have somebody who knows what they are doing with them when they replace the capacitors, which are often inside the windings. I had more success with the Lucas SR industrial magneto than with the Wader type.
I know one other guy who has used Boyers in a high comp. Triumph 750 and he said he had problems with the Boyer. However I would have thought my application would have been just as critical.
The only thing I dislike about the Boyer is the battery situation. I run total loss and maintaining the battery is a pain, when you don't ride very often.