961 is back !

I'm gonna stop beating this dead horse.
I think we've all given Dr. Bob food for thought.
Let's see what owner feedback revels.

BritTwit said:

I'm gonna stop beating this dead horse.
I think we've all given Dr. Bob food for thought.
Let's see what owner feedback revels.

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Agreed.

It is why I tried to explain the differences of opinion as being down to perspective.

We all agree there are issues there that shouldn’t be, but some of us are more upset about them than others.

It was an attempt to draw a line under things that backfired, causing further argument and accusations from Mr Spencer.

Bottom line for me is as you say, issues are there… feedback has been given… let’s hope the issues are minor and easily fixed AND that the factory takes inspiration to improve further.

Stephen_Spencer said:

Idle issues…”you don’t think that’s so bad…”. Or, you could read what I actually write FE! No matter mate - we both know that I am well used to you mischaracterising what I say (from elsewhere) . It bothers me less over time.

You’re ‘offended‘ that these problems still exist? Really? We have an idle problem on a couple of bikes yet to reach first service, or to be fault diagnosed. Where is the perspective?

Agreed, if the issue remains systemic from the Donington days then that’s a really bad outcome and Norton need to sort it, and quickly - and then move on!! Or, alternatively, we could continue to crucify them with language and an attitude shown so often on this forum - to what end????

You appear to be continuing to make a particular issue out of the noisy primary (No 1 concern - # 943) - the reason for the sale of your 961 - whilst at the same time agreeing that it’s not gonna lead to serious defects. We know that to be true.

As a well respected, obviously astute forum member with an engineering background who wants Norton to ’prosper’, maybe you might pause a moment before you post the phrase ‘f#ck that’ to purchasing the Birmingham 961. Unless you believe that is good, sound advice?

If so, then post away.

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Stephen
I was wondering if I may, with no disrespect, could I ask what you do for a living?

Voodooo said:

Stephen
I was wondering if I may, with no disrespect, could I ask what you do for a living?

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I thought he was a full time forum monitor?

Fast Eddie said:

Why should I pause before saying f*ck that ??

I am telling you what MY thought process was as a genuine potential customer and neither wish to retract or appologise for the comment.

I hope Norton read it and take note because, as I’ve said very clearly, I doubt very much I’m alone in those thoughts. Which if correct means that these issues are driving customers away.

Resolve the issues and you kill the negative chat and stop driving customers away. That’s how I’m looking at this mate and in my opinion it ain’t rocket science.

You might be ‘bothered less’ by this next point but I’m not… I’m tired of it… please state CLEARLY where I have mischaracterised you. If you can, I will apologise as it was certainly not intentional. And if you can’t, stop saying it.

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Happy as you are to end this discussion, but you asked a question FE and took the opportunity to summarise. Fair enough.

I wonder what is ‘driving more customers away’ - a couple of bikes displaying idle problems (as initially disappointing as that is) prior to their first service and at the start of a 2 year warranty period - or, what some may view as overblown negative rhetoric from the premier technical knowledge base for the Norton 961?

The primary may sound loud to some but is (very) unlikely to cause difficulties and as you agree, whatever the idle issue is will ‘most likely be a simple fix’ at the first service. Rather than reflective rhetoric, let’s have outrage at outcomes if in 6 months time this bike is displaying associated faults.
My opinion only.

With respect FE, read my thoughts about the continuation of the idle issues and if they are found to remain systemic from the Donington era. Is your characterisation that I ‘don’t think it’s so bad’ remotely accurate. That’s not a question.

Voodooo said:

Stephen
I was wondering if I may, with no disrespect, could I ask what you do for a living?

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No.

Stephen_Spencer said:

Happy as you are to end this discussion, but you asked a question FE and took the opportunity to summarise. Fair enough.

I wonder what is ‘driving more customers away’ - a couple of bikes displaying idle problems (as initially disappointing as that is) prior to their first service and at the start of a 2 year warranty period - or, what some may view as overblown negative rhetoric from the premier technical knowledge base for the Norton 961?

The primary may sound loud to some but is (very) unlikely to cause difficulties and as you agree, whatever the idle issue is will ‘most likely be a simple fix’ at the first service. Rather than reflective rhetoric, let’s have outrage at outcomes if in 6 months time this bike is displaying associated faults.
My opinion only.

With respect FE, read my thoughts about the continuation of the idle issues and if they are found to remain systemic from the Donington era. Is your characterisation that I ‘don’t think it’s so bad’ remotely accurate. That’s not a question.

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Stephen what you fail to realize, is this should have never happened. Supposedly TVS addressed all of these issues and supposedly they test run these bikes in before they leave the factory.

Nobody is saying Norton won’t address and fix the issues. We’re clearly saying it’s a problem that should have never happened.
You can’t tell me the owners are peachy over this. He’s rather upset and rightfully so. Just as you are with your leaking fuel cap.

Many of the current buyers bought a new 961 now because of all the issues the Donington bikes had.
How do you think they feel seeing that right off the bat, they’re having the start of the same issues Donington bikes had.

Sure it’s just an idle issue to you, you’re not the one who waited maybe a decade for a new 961 only to feel the bite.
If you can’t I understand that, I feel sorry.

Stephen_Spencer said:

No.

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Exactly.
It all adds up now.
You’re a product marketing manager for Norton.

Much of this discussion could be put to bed if a few of us just got together and went on a plant tour. There are many things you can see and hear and ask in person that would otherwise never be published or offered officially in writing.
If I was in the UK and I was considering a 961, rather then spending/wasting the time here, I would just go there, look around, soak it all up and and ask direct questions.
Another person I would go see is Stu Bodycote. Pay him for his time even. He is disassembling a Classic. What better source of info if you pair these two together?

I am not in the UK, and I bought the damn thing outright already.
For the rest of you in the country...

CR961 said:

Much of this discussion could be put to bed if a few of us just got together and went on a plant tour. There are many things you can see and hear and ask in person that would otherwise never be published or offered officially in writing.
If I was in the UK and I was considering a 961, rather then spending/wasting the time here, I would just go there, look around, soak it all up and and ask direct questions.
Another person I would go see is Stu Bodycote. Pay him for his time even. He is disassembling a Classic. What better source of info if you pair these two together?

I am not in the UK, and I bought the damn thing outright already.
For the rest of you in the country...

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I agree. I actually live quite close to the factory, but my issues is… it’s what I do for a living! I’m not paid to paint a glossy picture though, I’m paid to find problems and potential improvements and offer solutions. And I’m good at it !

So there’s no way on this earth I’m prepared to go on a plant tour and post my conclusions to y’all on here, not when we’ve just had 10 pages debating whether or not the idle racing issue really is an issue or not !!

As for Stu, his comparison videos that he posted were excellent, and showed some good engineering modifications had been executed by TVS. But he’s since gone very quiet on the topic …

Thank you for that staggeringly one sided characterisation FE! Not surprisingly, I disagree with the majority.

- Sadly your attempt to draw a line under it? You asked me a direct question FE, that warrants a response. At no time did you say let’s agree to disagree, you simply continued to prosecute your point(s), which I was naturally going to respond to - as you yourself do - discussion, debate or argument.

- By ‘people arguing with me‘ you mean you (and Voodoo, which is a given). This discussion evolved into a genuine debate about whether members of this forum are unnecessarily focussing on certain faults, in such a manner that might discourage prospective buyers ‘V‘ these faults should be aired, loudly and often, so Norton may do something about them.

If it has developed to an argument you most certainly played your part, ably assisted of course. I’d add that of the three of us I am the least combative or antagonistic in the way I word/structure my posts. Attempting to paint me as the sole protagonist is not valid

YOU do not / will not accept that other people have other opinions / thoughts / feelings to you.

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- I reject that entirely. It is just nonsense and at odds with my content. We have different views, that does’nt mean I reject your opinions, thoughts and feelings. But what of the reverse? Take a look at the flak that often heads my way!

- Your explanation of mischaracterisation?

I did so because you have argued strongly and repeatedly that the issues being discussed are minor and will be addressed at the first service etc. Put simply, you have played down their severity, strongly and repeatedly

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- That is not accurate. I pointed out that we did not know what the idle fault was until diagnosed - did I play down the severity strongly and repeatedly? Or did I attempt to add a little perspective. I would very strongly argue the latter. At no time did I play down the severity of the idle issue, beyond pointing out the low number of bikes.

- I added what a disappointing, concerning outcome the idle issue is, further, if the fault was proven to be carried over from the Donnington era that would be a really bad outcome, they would need to fix quickly etc. At no time did I say they were minor - Voodoo initially posted it will ‘most likely be an easy fix’ (which you agreed with) not myself.

I’ve just read the last 4-5 pages again. This is clearly going nowhere.

I maintain that we need to ‘hold fire’ until we find out what the idle fault(s) are, see how effectively they are dealt with (if this has not already occurred), allow some clear air to flow and see how the bikes (and Norton) perform over the coming months.

The alternative of continuing to pound on that drum has no positive outcome IMO.

Stephen Spencer is right. He’s always right.
TVS Norton is the best and they know exactly what they are doing.
They know the very best way to run their business and how to please current and potential customers.

Norton is run by very loving and trustworthy, dedicated employees. They are enthusiastic to help you, and current owners achieve their dreams.

They completely understand the customer base, they said they improved 1/3 of the 961, they said quality is of the utmost importance to them.
They will not disappoint.
They will succeed.
Nortons history has never failed. Never.

Any problems you have with your beautiful and beloved 961 will be addressed at its first service. After all, we do provide the standard 2 year warranty on a hand made motorcycle.

While it is true, some other manufacturers offer 3 year warranties, we at Norton have taken great pride with our team of experienced and professional motorcycle builders that we feel 2 years is more than enough.

Don’t be discouraged if you have a few minor issues in the first few miles of your brand new, beloved Norton 961!
Rest assured, we will address and cover those concerns when you return for its very first white glove service.

My name is Dr Robert and I approve this message.

Hey, everyone:

1. The "discussion" on this thread is getting way toooooo confrontational, lets relax a bit.
2. The photo of Dr Bob above, can someone please Photoshop a smile on that guy. He looks like he's getting a prostate exam.

Voodooo said:

Stephen Spencer is right. He’s always right.
TVS Norton is the best and they know exactly what they are doing.
They know the very best way to run their business and how to please current and potential customers.

Norton is run by very loving and trustworthy, dedicated employees. They are enthusiastic to help you, and current owners achieve their dreams.

They completely understand the customer base, they said they improved 1/3 of the 961, they said quality is of the utmost importance to them.
They will not disappoint.
They will succeed.
Nortons history has never failed. Never.

Any problems you have with your beautiful and beloved 961 will be addressed at its first service. After all, we do provide the standard 2 year warranty on a hand made motorcycle.

While it is true, some other manufacturers offer 3 year warranties, we at Norton have taken great pride with our team of experienced and professional motorcycle builders that we feel 2 years is more than enough.

Don’t be discouraged if you have a few minor issues in the first few miles of your brand new, beloved Norton 961!
Rest assured, we will address and cover those concerns when you return for its very first white glove service.

My name is Dr Robert and I approve this message.

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Now that's just plain Bitchy , and not helpful to anyone, is it?.

peebee said:

Now that's just plain Bitchy , and not helpful to anyone, is it?.

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Why because it’s true?

And this is why there needs to be a Stephen Spencer and Voodooo thread! Maybe third time is a charm

Eddie you are becoming the new Voodooo as well!!

City Garage said:

Eddie you are becoming the new Voodooo as well!!

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Well, if by that you mean that I end up arguing a lot with Mr Spencer, yes, I agree.

Let’s just make a list of all of the other people I argue that much with in my 19,000 plus posts… err… well… erm… no… it’s just Stephen !

Praps we should start a 3 way Eddie / Voodoo / Spencer thread and keep the other threads clean !

We could even do a ‘pay per view’ with it !!

Good Grief!

Fast Eddie said:

Well, if by that you mean that I end up arguing a lot with Mr Spencer, yes, I agree.

Let’s just make a list of all of the other people I argue that much with in my 19,000 plus posts… err… well… erm… no… it’s just Stephen !

Praps we should start a 3 way Eddie / Voodoo / Spencer thread and keep the other threads clean !

We could even do a ‘pay per view’ with it !!

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can we call the thread "If you want to be a dick please post here"?