961 is back !

Fast Eddie said:
Hmmm your final paragraph seems to be saying that due to the influence Access Norton has, we should be careful with our criticisms lest we upset the big bosses in TVS.

I take the opposite viewpoint. I sincerely hope they do hear of the negativity and take stock of WHY it is happening and then ADDRESS these reasons.

In doing so, they’ll make better products, and undoing that, create a healthier, stronger company.
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Yes I would be surprised if they are not reading this and facebook. Thats how Harley came up with the new engines reading and seeing feedback. The old president Matt whatever his name was said so in many interviews
 
City Garage said:
Yes I would be surprised if they are not reading this and facebook. Thats how Harley came up with the new engines reading and seeing feedback. The old president Matt whatever his name was said so in many interviews
Click to expand...
If this were to be the case, in today´s world, you better be careful what you wish for. I fully agree that the Commando could and should be manufactured to the highest achievable standard. With a factory full of CNCs and CMMs, this is only a matter of will. However, every time something is modernised, it looses a part of its spirit. If a new-gen Commando were to appear in the future, which seems doubtful, it will be very different to what we have. It is likely that the bikes we now look at as flawed will only have to wait for a few decades or even less to become respected all-time classics with never-again repeated character.
 
Let’s be real here.
It’s pretty sad that after 13 years, owners of the 961 have made more improvements on the Norton 961 than Donington and as of now, TVS Norton aka Solihull.
By improvements I mean run-ability, testing, research and tuning.

I could understand having issues the first 1-3 years of production, but 13?
Come on!!!

It’s literally the same exact motor it’s always been with dollar store updates.

Why didn’t TVS use a better ECU or EFI system? It’s clearly out there.
Why didn’t they address the primary?

Because it cost money. It cost time.
And after all the money that went into the factory and getting the business up and running they were already at a loss.
So again, what are the 300 items that were improved or updated?

If I remember correctly, didn’t TVS not want to offer the 961?
Maybe I’m mistaken.
 
Voodooo said:
If I remember correctly, didn’t TVS not want to offer the 961?
Maybe I’m mistaken.
Click to expand...
Originally, TVS/Norton said they were not continuing 961 production, but later said in a release that they had reconsidered. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall at that company discussion.

They just should have increased the bore 1 silly millimeter to 89mm, and create the new Norton 983. That way it would be a new engine, and bike, so no need to pay royalties to a Communist Chinese entity.
Then fix all of the bloody issues, once and for all, and sell a problem free 983 Commando!!!!!😁
 
BritTwit said:
Originally, TVS/Norton said they were not continuing 961 production, but later said in a release that they had reconsidered. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall at that company discussion.

They just should have increased the bore 1 silly millimeter to 89mm, and create the new Norton 983. That way it would be a new engine, and bike, so no need to pay royalties to a Communist Chinese entity.
Then fix all of the bloody issues, once and for all, and sell a problem free 983 Commando!!!!!😁
Click to expand...
That’s a good idea.
 
I remain somewhat convinced that the answer to the majority of starting and idle problems is the balance tube.

If I had to keep the IAC, I'd make sure it was closed during cranking, and didn't open once some temperature was in the bike. I will admit to having the luxury of the Australian climate.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Hmmm your final paragraph seems to be saying that due to the influence Access Norton has, we should be careful with our criticisms lest we upset the big bosses in TVS.

I take the opposite viewpoint. I sincerely hope they do hear of the negativity and take stock of WHY it is happening and then ADDRESS these reasons.

In doing so, they’ll make better products, and undoing that, create a healthier, stronger company.
Click to expand...
Not what I’m saying whatsoever FE. Exactly the opposite.

I think from my post (and many similar) you understand why I think it’s important for our commentary to be balanced. As we well know, prospective buyers often come here and to FB before making a purchasing decision.

If you were a prospective buyer of the Birmingham 961 and read just the few posts since my last here, you would likely run a mile. Certainly if you had read recent serious concerns for the still noisy (read deeply flawed) primary drive! Now if you guys are happy with that outcome because the bike is still so poor and stand by your content as balanced and representative of the new 961 then fair enough. They should run a mile.

But just maybe the primary is a little loud for some but will likely give no technical difficulty whatsoever, as is the case for the overwhelming majority of Donington owners. Maybe the couple of bikes showing idle issues have a simple fix - we don’t know yet.

Just maybe, owners will go on to have a wonderful ownership experience - you know, the one that we all wanted and deserved. Bit late maybe, for those that have already run a mile based on the balanced opinion of the boys from Access Norton - “with all of their experience, if they’re saying ‘f#ck that’………!!”:oops:

Any chance though, that some of our commentary is not quite as balanced as we think it is? Just maybe we might be projecting through a lens of our own (justified) frustrations, resentments and negative bias onto the current environment?

Don’t give a toss about the ‘big bosses in TVS’, India! I do give a toss about the Norton workforce in Solihull England, who I’m pretty certain are not working hard trying to produce bad product. My guess is they’re working hard to make Norton‘s re-launch a success in a hugely competitive market.

Yes Norton should have paid to reduce noise from the primary (in a perfect world with no bean counters) and it’s disappointing that there remain a couple with idle issues. But are we really saying that after 13 years in production the 961 should be 100% free of all faults - literally ‘the perfect hand built motorcycle’? Anyone wanna give me an example of one of those?

What I’m saying is, lets see what happens when the owners have got some miles on the bike before we write it off for the world to read.

My thoughts only.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Not what I’m saying whatsoever FE. Exactly the opposite.

I think from my post (and many similar) you understand why I think it’s important for our commentary to be balanced. As we well know, prospective buyers often come here and to FB before making a purchasing decision.

If you were a prospective buyer of the Birmingham 961 and read just the few posts since my last here, you would likely run a mile. Certainly if you had read recent serious concerns for the still noisy (read deeply flawed) primary drive! Now if you guys are happy with that outcome because the bike is still so poor and stand by your content as balanced and representative of the new 961 then fair enough. They should run a mile.

But just maybe the primary is a little loud for some but will likely give no technical difficulty whatsoever, as is the case for the overwhelming majority of Donington owners. Maybe the couple of bikes showing idle issues have a simple fix - we don’t know yet.

Just maybe, owners will go on to have a wonderful ownership experience - you know, the one that we all wanted and deserved. Bit late maybe, for those that have already run a mile based on the balanced opinion of the boys from Access Norton - “with all of their experience, if they’re saying ‘f#ck that’………!!”:oops:

Any chance though, that some of our commentary is not quite as balanced as we think it is? Just maybe we might be projecting through a lens of our own (justified) frustrations, resentments and negative bias onto the current environment?

Don’t give a toss about the ‘big bosses in TVS’, India! I do give a toss about the Norton workforce in Solihull England, who I’m pretty certain are not working hard trying to produce bad product. My guess is they’re working hard to make Norton‘s re-launch a success in a hugely competitive market.

Yes Norton should have paid to reduce noise from the primary (in a perfect world with no bean counters) and it’s disappointing that there remain a couple with idle issues. But are we really saying that after 13 years in production the 961 should be 100% free of all faults - literally ‘the perfect hand built motorcycle’? Anyone wanna give me an example of one of those?

What I’m saying is, lets see what happens when the owners have got some miles on the bike before we write it off for the world to read.

My thoughts only.
Click to expand...
Stephen, you are restricted to 3 paragraphs max!! 😂
 
Voodooo said:
Stephen
Here we are again!
Why should I be surprised by your overly optimistic views?

I get that you think Norton is the greatest bike manufacturer available on the market today ……………………
Click to expand...

Sorry Voodoo,

I would respond, but I stopped reading exactly here.

Steve xx
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Not what I’m saying whatsoever FE. Exactly the opposite.

I think from my post (and many similar) you understand why I think it’s important for our commentary to be balanced. As we well know, prospective buyers often come here and to FB before making a purchasing decision.

If you were a prospective buyer of the Birmingham 961 and read just the few posts since my last here, you would likely run a mile. Certainly if you had read recent serious concerns for the still noisy (read deeply flawed) primary drive! Now if you guys are happy with that outcome because the bike is still so poor and stand by your content as balanced and representative of the new 961 then fair enough. They should run a mile.

But just maybe the primary is a little loud for some but will likely give no technical difficulty whatsoever, as is the case for the overwhelming majority of Donington owners. Maybe the couple of bikes showing idle issues have a simple fix - we don’t know yet.

Just maybe, owners will go on to have a wonderful ownership experience - you know, the one that we all wanted and deserved. Bit late maybe, for those that have already run a mile based on the balanced opinion of the boys from Access Norton - “with all of their experience, if they’re saying ‘f#ck that’………!!”:oops:

Any chance though, that some of our commentary is not quite as balanced as we think it is? Just maybe we might be projecting through a lens of our own (justified) frustrations, resentments and negative bias onto the current environment?

Don’t give a toss about the ‘big bosses in TVS’, India! I do give a toss about the Norton workforce in Solihull England, who I’m pretty certain are not working hard trying to produce bad product. My guess is they’re working hard to make Norton‘s re-launch a success in a hugely competitive market.

Yes Norton should have paid to reduce noise from the primary (in a perfect world with no bean counters) and it’s disappointing that there remain a couple with idle issues. But are we really saying that after 13 years in production the 961 should be 100% free of all faults - literally ‘the perfect hand built motorcycle’? Anyone wanna give me an example of one of those?

What I’m saying is, lets see what happens when the owners have got some miles on the bike before we write it off for the world to read.

My thoughts only.
Click to expand...
And once again you defend TVS Norton to the fullest.
By balanced what exactly do you mean? My idea of balanced is 1/2 positive and 1/2 negative.
Without negative comments and experiences, manufacturers wouldn’t change anything. They would just keep producing shit. Yes I said it.

For the life of me, I can not understand why it is so hard for you to ever see things for what they really are.
More people bought the Donington 961, flaws n all than who have so far bought what was thought to be a 1/3 improved 961.

Please, lay off the sugar coating.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Yes Norton should have paid to reduce noise from the primary (in a perfect world with no bean counters) and it’s disappointing that there remain a couple with idle issues. But are we really saying that after 13 years in production the 961 should be 100% free of all faults - literally ‘the perfect hand built motorcycle’? Anyone wanna give me an example of one of those?

What I’m saying is, lets see what happens when the owners have got some miles on the bike before we write it off for the world to read.

My thoughts only.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone expects a perfect 961, I certainly don't. It's just these niggling issues prevail even to this day after a "re-engineering" effort by the factory. Just shouldn't be. The 961 is not a complex, high tech, cutting edge tool. It is extremely low tech and simple in design. Solutions to its issues should be easy to arrive at.
Let's hope other new owners report in with better results.
 
Voodooo said:
Of course you didn’t.
I know you read it all that’s why you’re fuming because of my closing.
I speak the truth. And you my boy, can’t handle the truth.
Click to expand...
That is true mate, and I can’t stand it!

I’m especially fuming at your “Norton is ruining Norton” comment!

It‘s so incisive………;)!
 
BritTwit said:
I don't think anyone expects a perfect 961, I certainly don't. It's just these niggling issues prevail even to this day after a "re-engineering" effort by the factory. Just shouldn't be. The 961 is not a complex, high tech, cutting edge tool. It is extremely low tech and simple in design. Solutions to its issues should be easy to arrive at.
Let's hope other new owners report in with better results.
Click to expand...
Agreed BT. If it transpires that the same idle faults (and maybe others) remain systematic, then that is a really bad outcome. But also an opportunity to see what sort of business Norton intend to be.

Whatever the idle fault turns out to be, they will need to fix it inside of the two year warranty period to the satisfaction of the bike owners. If this occurs in a timely and efficient manner then all is good. If they avoid and obfuscate without providing an appropriate outcome, then that tells us something entirely different.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Agreed BT. If it transpires that the same idle faults (and maybe others) remain systematic, then that is a really bad outcome. But also an opportunity to see what sort of business Norton intend to be.

Whatever the idle fault turns out to be, they will need to fix it inside of the two year warranty period to the satisfaction of the bike owners. If this occurs in a timely and efficient manner then all is good. If they avoid and obfuscate without providing an appropriate outcome, then that tells us something entirely different.
Click to expand...
It’s most likely a simple fix. Nobody is saying they won’t fix it. It just looks bad that it’s already happening.
 
Fast Eddie said:
If they did fail to fix any such issues within the warranty period, that would be the second level of failure.

The first failure is they’ve put the bike to market with these issues in the first place. The bottom line to our disagreement here is that you don’t think that’s so bad, I think it’s terrible.

As Voodoo has pointed out already, the bike is 13 years old, they have a ton of history to work with, dozens of owners to talk to, old factory staff employed, it’s inconceivable that these problems were not known about. And yet they still exists. To me this is deeply unacceptable Stephen, I actually find it offensive, that’s why I react so.

Please don’t forget, us negative whiners here are the same people who screamed out loud to be told exactly what the modifications were that TVS proudly shouted about… we simply wanted to be assured that the known problems are fixed… so… obviously… we are somewhat dismayed to be seeing those exact same problems on customers new bikes.

At the end of the day, all of us here are Norton, and 961, enthusiasts. All we want is for Norton to produce high quality 961s and then go on to prosper.
Click to expand...

Idle issues…”you don’t think that’s so bad…”. Or, you could read what I actually write FE! No matter mate - we both know that I am well used to you mischaracterising what I say (from elsewhere) 🤣. It bothers me less over time.

You’re ‘offended‘ that these problems still exist? Really? We have an idle problem on a couple of bikes yet to reach first service, or to be fault diagnosed. Where is the perspective?

Agreed, if the issue remains systemic from the Donington days then that’s a really bad outcome and Norton need to sort it, and quickly - and then move on!! Or, alternatively, we could continue to crucify them with language and an attitude shown so often on this forum - to what end????

You appear to be continuing to make a particular issue out of the noisy primary (No 1 concern - # 943) - the reason for the sale of your 961 - whilst at the same time agreeing that it’s not gonna lead to serious defects. We know that to be true.

As a well respected, obviously astute forum member with an engineering background who wants Norton to ’prosper’, maybe you might pause a moment before you post the phrase ‘f#ck that’ to purchasing the Birmingham 961. Unless you believe that is good, sound advice?

If so, then post away.
 
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