What's happening at Norton? Sale to TVS, massive investment, new bikes...

Dogsbody said:
A Heritage name doesn’t guarantee success, the BSA Gold Star 650, heavily pre ordered and anticipated has already saturated its market in the UK with £1000-£1500 discounts advertised on new bikes, bikes on showroom floors collecting dust. Will be interesting to see how the Triumph 400 range fares after twelve months.
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The BSA 'Goldstar' is a poor first effort imo, using an old tarted up single with the same quality issues as the RE 650.. its paint and overall finish isn't up to Japanese standards. Chrome rusting on demo models etc. Those BSA's are being built and imported from India so far, BSA haven't started building them in the UK yet. The RE 650 has been a top seller in the UK, due to its low cost and decent real world performance.. and 3 year warranty. But recently, they alongside the BSA are being discounted heavily, my local dealer has the Interceptor at below £5K now. Sure there's higher interest rates etc, but I think a big reason is its now got competition, in the form of the Triumph 400s. Which are selling very well it seems.
 
Interesting article that hints at the future division of engineering/ manufacturing responsibilities between Solihull and Honsur that we’ve been discussing.

Norton Sees Global Manufacturing as a Way into Key Markets

News reports have recently stated that Norton will be taking manufacturing out of the UK, and while that may be true, it’s not quite the full picture
www.visordown.com www.visordown.com
 
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Stephen_Spencer said:
Interesting article that hints at the future division of engineering/ manufacturing responsibilities between Solihull and Honsur that we’ve been discussing.

Norton Sees Global Manufacturing as a Way into Key Markets

News reports have recently stated that Norton will be taking manufacturing out of the UK, and while that may be true, it’s not quite the full picture
www.visordown.com www.visordown.com
Click to expand...
😂😂😂😂

That means India manufacturing. Not so premium now huh.

How can anyone believe that a company whom owns an enormous factory making economy motorcycles by the 100s of thousands not have their hands on the Norton manufacturing process?

If I have to read another comment on how much TVS bought Norton for, or how much they invested, I’m gonna jump off a bridge.
 
BMW, KTM, Triumph, HD and more all have complete bikes built in India, in collaboration with Indian companies, and many more source parts including complete engines. I doubt TVS will build the larger, dare I say the 'luxury' models in India as that would corrupt the brand, and TVS know it. However, I think TVS will manufacture their Triumph 400 competitor in their Indian factory. Its the only way those small bikes could be priced to compete.
 
There’s nothing new to us here, just confirmation. We’ve been discussing the likelihood of some bikes being built in Honsur for months - previous articles noted TVS opening a dedicated Norton line/facility in Honsur; where TVS build BMW’s smaller capacity bikes.

The most likely outcome being the bikes going to the premium market being built in Birmingham with those lower capacity machines (plus likely the smaller commuter EV) being built in Honsur.

Makes no sense to build bikes likely aimed (predominantly) at the Asian market in high cost UK, anymore than it does to expect western markets to pay premium prices for bikes built in India.

Who knows where the future will take us - if Norton succeed and reach much higher volumes I guess that scenario might shift. But in the end we’re still speculating right?

www.bikewale.com

BMW G 310 R [2021] price in Hosur - October 2024 on road price of G 310 R [2021] in Hosur

BMW G 310 R [2021] price in Hosur - Rs. 2,65,000 (Ex-Showroom price). Get its detailed on road price in Hosur. Check your nearest BMW G 310 R [2021] Dealer in Hosur
www.bikewale.com

www.deccanherald.com

BMW CE 02 production begins at TVS' Hosur factory

BMW CE 02 production begins at TVS' Hosur factory
www.deccanherald.com www.deccanherald.com

 
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Stephen_Spencer said:
There’s nothing new to us here, just confirmation. We’ve been discussing the likelihood of some bikes being built in Honsur for months - previous articles noted TVS opening a dedicated Norton line/facility in Honsur; where TVS build BMW’s smaller capacity bikes.

The most likely outcome being the bikes going to the premium market being built in Birmingham with those lower capacity machines (plus likely the smaller commuter EV) being built in Honsur.

Makes no sense to build bikes likely aimed (predominantly) at the Asian market in high cost UK, anymore than it does to expect western markets to pay premium prices for bikes built in India.

Who knows where the future will take us - if Norton succeed and reach much higher volumes I guess that scenario might shift. But in the end we’re still speculating right?

www.bikewale.com

BMW G 310 R [2021] price in Hosur - October 2024 on road price of G 310 R [2021] in Hosur

BMW G 310 R [2021] price in Hosur - Rs. 2,65,000 (Ex-Showroom price). Get its detailed on road price in Hosur. Check your nearest BMW G 310 R [2021] Dealer in Hosur
www.bikewale.com

www.deccanherald.com

BMW CE 02 production begins at TVS' Hosur factory

BMW CE 02 production begins at TVS' Hosur factory
www.deccanherald.com www.deccanherald.com

Click to expand...
What you fail to admit is, BMW isn’t “owned by TVS nor is BMW owned by an Indian based company.

Norton is “owned” by TVS an Indian company.
It all comes down to money, and without making money or a profit, there is no business. So far, Norton hasn’t made a single penny in profit.

Where do you think triumph made the TFC bikes at? Wasn’t in the UK. Asia.
TFC is Triumphs “limited edition” premium line. Made in Asia.
 
Gents, it has now been proven beyond doubt that the VAST majority of ‘British’ bike buyers don’t give a flying f*ck about it being in any way British.

Ok that’s not quite true… so long as it has at least one Union Flag emblem bestowed prominently on it somewhere… it’s then ‘British’ enough for them!

Personally I think this is very sad. But at least I now accept I’m in the irrelevant minority.
 
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Voodooo said:
What you fail to admit is, BMW isn’t “owned by TVS nor is BMW owned by an Indian based company.

Norton is “owned” by TVS an Indian company.
It all comes down to money, and without making money or a profit, there is no business. So far, Norton hasn’t made a single penny in profit.

Where do you think triumph made the TFC bikes at? Wasn’t in the UK. Asia.
TFC is Triumphs “limited edition” premium line. Made in Asia.
Click to expand...
Not really sure what you’re trying to say Voodooo. Old ground though!

If you’re characterising Norton as having failed at this point, because profit has not been made, then that might be a tad premature - before they’ve gotten over the start line🤣 (legacy models were only ever a place filler). The period over which TVS will continue to fund Norton has been widely publicised (including figures) recognising that there will be a significant period before they have opportunity to make clear profit. The reason for TVS’s 10 year Norton plan I guess. This is year 4.

If you’re inferring that, due to the fact Norton has made no profit, it’s inevitable that all production will move to Honsur, then that runs contrary to what Norton are stating. As said above, we’re speculating here. In my opinion the ‘premium’ models they have identified will likely be made in Birmingham, at least initially or until volumes increase. The fact that they’re going to build some bikes in India surprises no one.

To the best of my knowledge the TFC range were made in the UK, unless they moved them overseas later - not a lot of info available.

IMG_0541.jpeg
 
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Fast Eddie said:
Gents, it has now been proven beyond doubt that the VAST majority of ‘British’ bike buyers don’t give a flying f*ck about it being in any way British.

Ok that’s not quite true… so long as it has at least one Union Flag emblem bestowed prominently on it somewhere… it’s then ‘British’ enough for them!

Personally I think this is very sad. But at least I now accept I’m in the irrelevant minority.
Click to expand...
I think for Norton, at this stage FE, it matters - a lot! I suspect it also matters to prospective buyers that are likely to be asked to pay premium prices.

Norton has made a big deal out of setting up in Birmingham (the home of Norton) and in the hand built ‘premium’ nature of their bikes. Would it likely be acceptable to buyers if production were removed to India from the outset? My guess is a resounding ‘yes’! So, initially at least, the market will give a ‘flying f’ck’ about the bikes being British IMO.

Triumph built bikes in the UK for over a decade before volumes increased and mass production overseas became viable and a necessity for growth. That’s not where Norton is, obviously. There’s no doubt that Nortons will be built in Honsur - who knows when, what, or in which volumes. Worth discussing though!👍
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
I think for Norton, at this stage FE, it matters - a lot! I suspect it also matters to prospective buyers that are likely to be asked to pay premium prices.

Norton has made a big deal out of setting up in Birmingham (the home of Norton) and in the hand built ‘premium’ nature of their bikes. Would it likely be acceptable to buyers if production were removed to India from the outset? My guess is a resounding ‘yes’! So, initially at least, the market will give a ‘flying f’ck’ about the bikes being British IMO.

Triumph built bikes in the UK for over a decade before volumes increased and mass production overseas became viable and a necessity for growth. That’s not where Norton is, obviously. There’s no doubt that Nortons will be built in Honsur - who knows when, what, or in which volumes. Worth discussing though!👍
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Sadly I disagree.

I say sadly because I wish you were right.

I’ve argued strongly before about how I thought Triumph were so wrong to trade their Thia built bikes so openly on a British brand and heritage.

But Triumph could not have have proved me more wrong! They have proved beyond doubt that so long as there is enough of a U.K. footprint to claim a design centre and / or ‘some’ production (no need for specifics) then quite frankly the market just does not care.

Even the Triumph TFCs are a grey area, I was told that my TFC R3 was definitely made at Hinckley, but Voodoo is certain that his TFC Bobber is Thia. But they only made 750 of each (R3, Bobber, Thruxton) and prod of these ended years ago, so it’s all kinda irrelevant really.

With Norton’s I’d suggest the 961 is different, maybe also the V4, but by and large, anything they’re likely to produce in future will certainly be up for review regards being built elsewhere.

I would, of course, be delighted for TVS to prove me wrong again and keep the lions share of Norton manufacturing here at home. Heck, IF they produce decent machines and IF they produce them here, they may even tempt me back !
 
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Fast Eddie said:
Sadly I disagree.

But Triumph could not have have proved me more wrong! They have proved beyond doubt that so long as there is enough of a U.K. footprint to claim a design centre and / or ‘some’ production (no need for specifics) then quite frankly the market just does not care.
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Sadly, I must agree.
Maybe you can fool all of the people all of the time?
If they don't really care.
 
Fast Eddie said:
Gents, it has now been proven beyond doubt that the VAST majority of ‘British’ bike buyers don’t give a flying f*ck about it being in any way British.

Ok that’s not quite true… so long as it has at least one Union Flag emblem bestowed prominently on it somewhere… it’s then ‘British’ enough for them!

Personally I think this is very sad. But at least I now accept I’m in the irrelevant minority.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, it's nothing new. BMW cars made in Germany, South Africa, China, and the US. Japanese cars made in the US. US cars made in Canada and Mexico. Toyota is everywhere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toyota_factories

At least BMW motorcycles and Harley Davidson have mostly stayed in their home countries for most models.

Lee Iacocca in the late 70s convinced congress to bail out Crysler while begging for a "level playing field". All along, about 65% were made in Canada. So, in a way, the US taxpayers bailed out Canada! They were already using parts from Mexico and the US Steel industry was already basically dead. So it was also a Mexico and others bailout. Didn't do much for US workers!

It's a global economy today. It matters little to business where it's made as long as the home company insists on quality. Of course, it's terrible for the home country workers! For instance, FAG bearings are now made in several places, the US, Canada, Mexico, and India to name a few and of course the name is owned by the Schaeffller Group in Germany. The US stalworth, Timken Bearings, has plants in lots of countries including the US, Mexico, and India. Bosch has at least one huge facility in Pennsylvania.

We cut trees in the pacific northwest, ship them to China, they cut them into lumber products and ship them back to us!

Virginia, once the iron capitol of the US, still has a working iron plant. My county buys cast iron manhole covers that are made in India!

Many here, including me, are getting too old to be alive - it makes our heads hurt where things are going and have gone!
 
This is a mates R.E. It’s a tricked up special as a one off done by “ Robinsons “ bike dealer in Canterbury, just under 2 yrs old, 14 months manufacturers warranty, 1100 miles on the clock , he
What's happening at Norton? Sale to TVS, massive investment, new bikes...
paid £4800, the bike shop is a main dealer for Moto guzzi , Suzuki , Aprilia & Indian & has been around for years , if a potential customer of the new TVS commando cafe racer is looking for a two yr old one to potter about in the summer then he may be looking at say £11 to £13K , he may also be returning to motorcycles after a 20 yr absence , & is not to fazed on brands but likes the idea of someink British ? ,well I’m saying it’s tempting for a runaround , his other bike is a 1050 tiger.( confession here is that’s my other bike behind it ), apols if this item is in wrong place , do think all the new 961 bikes should of had highest of specs as Standard though , carbon hugger,chainguard, number plate holder, headlamp fairing polished yokes & other parts to , better reservoir s to , Just saying
What's happening at Norton? Sale to TVS, massive investment, new bikes...
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
Not really sure what you’re trying to say Voodooo. Old ground though!

If you’re characterising Norton as having failed at this point, because profit has not been made, then that might be a tad premature - before they’ve gotten over the start line🤣 (legacy models were only ever a place filler). The period over which TVS will continue to fund Norton has been widely publicised (including figures) recognising that there will be a significant period before they have opportunity to make clear profit. The reason for TVS’s 10 year Norton plan I guess. This is year 4.

If you’re inferring that, due to the fact Norton has made no profit, it’s inevitable that all production will move to Honsur, then that runs contrary to what Norton are stating. As said above, we’re speculating here. In my opinion the ‘premium’ models they have identified will likely be made in Birmingham, at least initially or until volumes increase. The fact that they’re going to build some bikes in India surprises no one.

To the best of my knowledge the TFC range were made in the UK, unless they moved them overseas later - not a lot of info available.

View attachment 115850
Click to expand...

Stephen.
It’s not what I’m trying to say. It’s what TVS Norton is saying.
If you really believe that Norton is going to offer made in the UK bikes, I’m sorry to say you’re wrong.

I own a TFC Triumph, it’s most definitely not made or assembled in the UK, how do I know? Because all of the literature they gave with the bike showing it’s assembly being done by Asian workers.
Sure Asians could be working at the triumph factory in the UK, but not every single employee there is of Asian descent as it shows in the books.

TVS Norton may have bikes designed and engineered in the UK, but I don’t believe for one second they’ll be made or produced there.
I hope I’m dead wrong.

Norton will make more money on economy bikes than they will with premium bikes.
Norton doesn’t have the money that BMW has.
 
I think TVS ‘is’ saying what we’ve been discussing for some time - that ‘some models’ will be made in Honsur. Most likely those biased toward the Asian market (as stated in the article). We guessed it, Norton has jconfirmed it. I think overseas production will likely ramp up over time based on volume, whether markets open up as planned/expected and of course economics.

The rest of our speculation is just that I suppose. You guys are interpreting this information to mean that all manufacturing will be conducted in Honsur. I don’t believe that will be the case. We’ll know soon enough.

TVS/Norton has built a motorcycle manufacturing facility for a reason though, and are already selling ‘made in the UK bikes’ of course - all be it as an entree ahead of the main course. I think there’ll use it to deliver their flagship (‘premium:rolleyes:’) models, as they are launched. Where they’re manufactured in future (and in what volumes) is anybody’s guess. No doubt Honsur will figure in a big way, which was likely always the plan

What's happening at Norton? Sale to TVS, massive investment, new bikes...
What's happening at Norton? Sale to TVS, massive investment, new bikes...

Worth noting that Triumph has returned some production to the UK for reasons explained in the below articles. I think some people do care that such an iconic brand is made predominantly overseas, but in the end economics wins out. They are producing awesome bikes at an affordable price point and that’s incentive enough for stellar sales - the Union Jack emblazoned is just a bonus for many.

Everything I’ve read about the TFC indicates that they were made in the UK - does sound a bit suss though Voodoo about Asian workers in the literature - who knows!

Good discussion though - ya gotta speculate right? A purely technical forum might be a bit dull!😁👍


Triumph bring production back to Britain – 44Teeth

www.44teeth.com www.44teeth.com
 
look at Royal Enfield: they have a sizable R and D set up in the UK, as do Yamaha in Europe. That is likely to be the main purpose of Solihull. All budget models are highly likely to made outside Britain, IMHO.
 
Stephen_Spencer said:
I think TVS ‘is’ saying what we’ve been discussing for some time - that ‘some models’ will be made in Honsur. Most likely those biased toward the Asian market (as stated in the article). We guessed it, Norton has jconfirmed it. I think overseas production will likely ramp up over time based on volume, whether markets open up as planned/expected and of course economics.

The rest of our speculation is just that I suppose. You guys are interpreting this information to mean that all manufacturing will be conducted in Honsur. I don’t believe that will be the case. We’ll know soon enough.

TVS/Norton has built a motorcycle manufacturing facility for a reason though, and are already selling ‘made in the UK bikes’ of course - all be it as an entree ahead of the main course. I think there’ll use it to deliver their flagship (‘premium:rolleyes:’) models, as they are launched. Where they’re manufactured in future (and in what volumes) is anybody’s guess. No doubt Honsur will figure in a big way, which was likely always the plan

View attachment 115866
View attachment 115867

Worth noting that Triumph has returned some production to the UK for reasons explained in the below articles. I think some people do care that such an iconic brand is made predominantly overseas, but in the end economics wins out. They are producing awesome bikes at an affordable price point and that’s incentive enough for stellar sales - the Union Jack emblazoned is just a bonus for many.

Everything I’ve read about the TFC indicates that they were made in the UK - does sound a bit suss though Voodoo about Asian workers in the literature - who knows!

Good discussion though - ya gotta speculate right? A purely technical forum might be a bit dull!😁👍


Triumph bring production back to Britain – 44Teeth

www.44teeth.com www.44teeth.com
Click to expand...
It must all be true, it’s on the internet.

I’m not believing that TVS will produce Nortons in the UK when they can do it cheaper in India. Whether it’s an economy or premium model.

R&D in the UK
Manufacturing in India.

HOPE IM WRONG

Where are Nortons current premium models made?
Engines produced and manufactured where?
 
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Like I said before, I believe TVS will at least assemble some bikes in the U.K. by following the Triumph model.

The Triumph model is: claim that all the brainwork (design etc) is done in the U.K. and assemble SOME bikes here. No specifics though, just ‘some’ as that’s enough to allow those who want to, to think that their bike ‘was probably’ made here! Then they can state how they’re ’British Bikes’ made anywhere!

The one mistake Triumph made is when they went to a situation where ALL bikes were made out of U.K. That was too much, so they back peddled enough to be able to claim that ‘some’ are produced here, thus restoring the above model.

Triumph really have nailed it. Norton WILL copy them.
 
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