What's happening at Norton? Sale to TVS, massive investment, new bikes...

This month's British Dealer News just published the official stats for last year.
 

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  • What's happening at Norton? Sale to TVS, massive investment, new bikes...
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The bit Solihull and TVS seem to miss is the bit we all get, you can hear a classic Norton coming, it sounds different to other classics. Back in the day there were bikes just as quick, if not quicker, better built bikes certainly, but they were not Norton. The Norton had something special and that special was something a little different to anyone that owned or admired them. The reason why there may have been so many failed resuscitations is that the owners in the past do not get this and can never to seem to find and build in the 'special' that makes them attractive. Anyone can build a bike, not everyone can build a Norton and that is where I see Solihull and TVS struggling.
Back in the 50's I have a deceased family member who traded in his Vincent twin for a Dominator, in todays market that is like getting a top spec Ducati owner trade it in for Norton, and really don't see that happening - the magic and special is not there.
 
Madnorton said:
The bit Solihull and TVS seem to miss is the bit we all get, you can hear a classic Norton coming, it sounds different to other classics. Back in the day there were bikes just as quick, if not quicker, better built bikes certainly, but they were not Norton. The Norton had something special and that special was something a little different to anyone that owned or admired them. The reason why there may have been so many failed resuscitations is that the owners in the past do not get this and can never to seem to find and build in the 'special' that makes them attractive. Anyone can build a bike, not everyone can build a Norton and that is where I see Solihull and TVS struggling.
Back in the 50's I have a deceased family member who traded in his Vincent twin for a Dominator, in todays market that is like getting a top spec Ducati owner trade it in for Norton, and really don't see that happening - the magic and special is not there.
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good point. However, from a younger punter’s perspective, they don’t have the link back to that ‘special’ time, apart from visual cues, IF they are already familiar with past models, which most are not, I suspect.
 
List price in 1965 for BSA Spitfire 650 was £389, list price for the 1965 Norton Atlas was £369. BSA was the Ford brand of the day and the Norton was cheaper.

Commando prices started out not far off the Atlas price and then rampant inflation took hold and the Mk3 ended up at £1700 but in reality was heavily discounted. BSA had gone bust so were't around for comparison but Triumph prices were and much the same eg T160/T140.

What's happening at Norton? Sale to TVS, massive investment, new bikes...


What the Norton brand was based on was their long history of race wins on the IOM ie the TT and the Grand Prix circuits and later in Production Racing once the Manx was killed off by the competition.

Now racing costs money and even more so today so hence the attempt to change to a Luxury brand as it costs less, but there is no history of Norton ever being a Luxury brand other than wishful thinking. So they are starting at ground Zero.

What's happening at Norton? Sale to TVS, massive investment, new bikes...
 
Madnorton said:
The bit Solihull and TVS seem to miss is the bit we all get, you can hear a classic Norton coming, it sounds different to other classics. Back in the day there were bikes just as quick, if not quicker, better built bikes certainly, but they were not Norton. The Norton had something special and that special was something a little different to anyone that owned or admired them. The reason why there may have been so many failed resuscitations is that the owners in the past do not get this and can never to seem to find and build in the 'special' that makes them attractive. Anyone can build a bike, not everyone can build a Norton and that is where I see Solihull and TVS struggling.
Back in the 50's I have a deceased family member who traded in his Vincent twin for a Dominator, in todays market that is like getting a top spec Ducati owner trade it in for Norton, and really don't see that happening - the magic and special is not there.
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A bit premature maybe, Norton Birmingham hasn’t brought anything to the market yet - beyond the legacy models! Let’s not claim they don’t get it until we see what they’ve got;)👍!

The imponderable ‘special‘ you struggle to describe was a sign of Norton’s position in the market at the time, where their racing legend was still well known and revered amongst the biking community. A point in time/history; that might be somewhat difficult to recreate today.

Some might also say that the 961 meets the Norton ‘profile’ pretty well for a modern iteration - not many other air cooled, parralel twin, push rod two valvers on the market. Also, not often accused of being unattractive - unless you’re on the vintage Norton Commando site that is!🤣
 
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CR961 said:
Now that is an interesting departure/arrival. A set of tech videos like his old series should be commissioned. How likely is that...
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I agree.
Tech the crap out of the the new models!
Then re-design the V4 - and tech the crap out it too!
 
Looks promising, but any ideas he has would be around 24 months away from fruition which again is yet more delay, and around 6 years from the date they purchased the smouldering ashes from BDO. It also suggest that nothing much has progressed in the back ground in the last 4 years, other than design sketches on paper at the most which he now has to turn into something tangible.
 
Madnorton said:
Looks promising, but any ideas he has would be around 24 months away from fruition which again is yet more delay, and around 6 years from the date they purchased the smouldering ashes from BDO. It also suggest that nothing much has progressed in the back ground in the last 4 years, other than design sketches on paper at the most which he now has to turn into something tangible.
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- Any ideas Gillan has will take 24 months to incorporate?
- Nothing has progressed in the last 4 years beyond sketches at the most?
- Gillan has been brought in to develop these sketches into bikes?

With respect mate - what is your source/ intel for any of this?
 
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Stephen_Spencer said:
- Any ideas Gillan has will take 24 months to incorporate?
- Nothing has progressed in the last 4 years beyond sketches at the most?
- Gillan has been brought in to develop these sketches into bikes?

With respect mate - what is your source/ intel for any of this?
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No source, just pure business and manufacturing, with some high level employees bought in less than two years ago to get the show off the ground but they have now gone, a new employee comes with new ideas, and they would not be willing to work with other ideas from those that have left the company.
To make a new model during these challenging times from concept to completion of road testing would be at least 2 years.
If they were working on parallel projects in the past 4 years then we would be very close to seeing or even be able to buy these new bikes.
A company backed with the financial and material resources of TVS Motor producing a new model in the last 4 years would be a walk in the park, but they have only registered around 150 961's and V4's in that time.
 
Madnorton said:
No source, just pure business and manufacturing, with some high level employees bought in less than two years ago to get the show off the ground but they have now gone, a new employee comes with new ideas, and they would not be willing to work with other ideas from those that have left the company.
To make a new model during these challenging times from concept to completion of road testing would be at least 2 years.
If they were working on parallel projects in the past 4 years then we would be very close to seeing or even be able to buy these new bikes.
A company backed with the financial and material resources of TVS Motor producing a new model in the last 4 years would be a walk in the park, but they have only registered around 150 961's and V4's in that time.
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I’m guessing that Gillan won’t be discarding all of the ‘sketches’ you refer to Mn;)! They’ve clearly brought a well credentialed R&D man in for good reason, although I don’t think it necessarily follows that’s because they’ve got nowhere in the last few years - a dollop of supposition there maybe?

I’m also not sure many would think that bringing a completely new model lineup to the market is a ‘walk in the park’, regardless of resources. Stu’s closer than most to Norton and their business side - his best estimate is around 5 years (below), from an already established business/team.

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TVS bought Norton in Apr 20. Whole lot of water has gone under the bridge to get to this point, including relocation, building and staffing a business etc. Let’s not mention the “P” word, thanks to our Chinese friends. Not a direct comparison obviously, but it took Bloor 10 years - we’ve had that conversation before.

Filling the void in information/activity with bleak assumptions is a choice right? But, fair enough - they’re opinions. We’re all entitled to em’👍. Let’s hope things get a whole lot more exciting before too much longer.
 
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Moto show in India last week with TVS Motor attending, the Indian PM visited the stand and the comments about Norton are worth reading, very little about Solihull more about what is happening with the brand. Models to be sold in India, as we know those models will need to be built in India, worth a read.

Comparing Bloor with Norton is truly pointless, Bloor was a builder - he started from nothing, TVS Motor have vast experience in design and building motorcycles, so they are already one step ahead. For an established motorcycle manufacturer to bring a new model to market the timescale is roughly 2 years, not 5. Triumph 400, Harley 450, BSA with a new model (not the new 650) have arrived or expected to arrive in the 2 year timescale.

As for excitement, possibly, maybe but not anytime soon.
 
Madnorton said:
Moto show in India last week with TVS Motor attending, the Indian PM visited the stand and the comments about Norton are worth reading, very little about Solihull more about what is happening with the brand. Models to be sold in India, as we know those models will need to be built in India, worth a read.

Comparing Bloor with Norton is truly pointless, Bloor was a builder - he started from nothing, TVS Motor have vast experience in design and building motorcycles, so they are already one step ahead. For an established motorcycle manufacturer to bring a new model to market the timescale is roughly 2 years, not 5. Triumph 400, Harley 450, BSA with a new model (not the new 650) have arrived or expected to arrive in the 2 year timescale.

As for excitement, possibly, maybe but not anytime soon.
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Sounds interesting Mn - can you put a link up? No doubt smaller capacity Norton models will be manufactured/sold in India at some stage.

I’m not sure we’re ‘comparing apples’ when we compare the likes of Triumph bringing out a 400 model and Norton, at this stage in their development, bringing a new model range (or two) to the market.

TVS hired leadership/R&D/engineering staff to operate out of the UK to bring (premium:rolleyes:) bikes to the western market - very different to what TVS produce in India. The Triumph 400 was developed, built and released in India before export. Nothing wrong with that, but a simpler mass produced machine from an established manufacturer. Them’s simply different apples and will likely take different periods of time to ripen.

Let’s face it though, we have very little (read no) info on the current status of the twin range or electric models. To suggest that they will be two years or so behind schedule indicates major problems and/or incompetence. The fact that TVS has been been open about the period over which funding will be provided and reasonably consistent about expected delivery of new bikes being 24, likely 25 then that would seem to indicate otherwise. But who knows - we’re speculating right?
 
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Madnorton said:
Not pretty reading, I was in two minds whether to post this but seeing as it is the public domain then I don't see an issue.

www.prnewswire.com

PRIME MINISTER AT THE TVS MOTOR PAVILION, COMPANY SHOWCASES ITS GLOBAL FORAY IN FUTURE MOBILITY

/PRNewswire/ -- TVS Motor Company (TVSM) - a leading global automaker that operates in the two and three-wheeler segments - showcased a suite of its made in...
www.prnewswire.com www.prnewswire.com
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Mate I read this, thought you must be referring to a different article. Don’t understand what you mean about ‘not pretty reading’?

I don’t see anything really contentious here. Reference to an engineering/development centre in India for Norton, if accurate, is not a big surprise - the facility exists already, producing various small capacity motorcycles. Not surprising if there is intent to develop similar (likely smaller capacity) Norton models in India for the domestic market.

Am I missing something?
 
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