What's happening at Norton? Sale to TVS, massive investment, new bikes...

Stu Bodycote said:

Norton will always been a British brand....much like McDonald's is an American brand. Doesn't matter where you buy a Big Mac in the world, it's still an American brand.
Norton is a luxury brand that opens many doors for TVS, and offers many government grants in development and manufacturing. The re-release 961 and V4 are basically just the breadsticks that restaurants bring out to stop you moaning that your main course is taking too long to reach the table.

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I like your analogy ! No matter where the Big Mac is made bro ! Norton is British as it gets . At least Norton is assembled in UK and during Donington days had some British content. It may still have some British content (idk) ?

City Garage said:

In still not understanding how "Norton" is iconic. Half the people that walk into the shop never heard of a "Norton" so I can't agree with iconic.

I think SS said it. the 961 is a placeholder until they get what I think is the electric tuk tuk or something like that in production. it will all be EV and small liter from here on out

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That’s a good point. When I was riding my Nortons, I can’t count how many people would ask who Norton was, and the ones who knew what Norton was, had no clue they were making the 961. You made a good point.

mdt-son said:

So my question to you brits is: Is there an equal strong following of Triumph, and do you also try to tell John Bloor what to make?

Cheers,
Knut

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Not a Brit either but...
For years in the nineties, US dealers did just that, they told Triumph to build a new Bonneville twin. Dealers sent word back to Hinckley that many perspective customers who came into their shops were asking for a Bonneville twin. Bloor's boys said the days of twins was over, new Triumphs are now 4 bangers and triples, don't like it, tough!
US dealers, being thick skull-ed idiots, persisted until in 2001 Triumph released the Bonneville twin, which quickly became the company's sales leader in the US for a number of years. Without those annoying Triumph fans pestering dealers, there would probably be no Triumph Twin models today.

I think it's only natural for Norton fans to voice their preference, or prejudice for certain models.

Stu Bodycote said:

Norton will always been a British brand....much like McDonald's is an American brand. Doesn't matter where you buy a Big Mac in the world, it's still an American brand.
Norton is a luxury brand that opens many doors for TVS, and offers many government grants in development and manufacturing. The re-release 961 and V4 are basically just the breadsticks that restaurants bring out to stop you moaning that your main course is taking too long to reach the table.

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I agree it’s a British name of brand. Nobody is saying that it’s not. But it’s not British owned.
Triumph is British owned.

TVS is an Indian brand that owns Norton, it’s profits will go to TVS and some back into Norton. The Norton bikes are Made of global parts, assembled by British hands in Britain and also of Chinese hands in China.

Triumph is made with global parts made with Asian and British hands. With global profits returned back to Britain and spent where they have plants.

Voodooo said:

That’s a good point. When I was riding my Nortons, I can’t count how many people would ask who Norton was, and the ones who knew what Norton was, had no clue they were making the 961. You made a good point.

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When I rode R66 I’d regularly wear a Norton T shirt in the evening in bars etc. I reckon I had as many folk ask me if I worked in IT security as asked me about motorcycles!

Norton was never a luxury brand up to and including the Rotaries, that is a recent invention of the branding 'Experts'.

It was a brand underpinned by racing success and development with low volume production that got it a price premium of 10% over Triumph and BSA for the production line models. The only bikes it sold with greater than 10% premium were the Manx and the Production Racers that were then put straight into racing.

Fast Eddie said:

When I rode R66 I’d regularly wear a Norton T shirt in the evening in bars etc. I reckon I had as many folk ask me if I worked in IT security as asked me about motorcycles!

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Funny and true. But, it this sense we don´t care about the people who think it´s an anti-virus.
Is Norton iconic?
Within the cultural meaning of what you want to say with that word, of course it is. For the biking world, yes. The fact that half the people don´t know it doesn´t make it any less iconic.
Is MV Agusta iconic? You know the answer.

Is Honda iconic? No, unfortunately not. Are there many models in Honda´s history which are positively iconic? Yes, indeed, many.
Is Ducati iconic. Yes, it is, but with many models that would not fit the bill. Is Ferrari iconic? Yes, in the same way.

As for the Britishness of Norton, it´s as good as it gets, regardless of where the parts are made, at least for the time being. In how it is perceived globally, Norton is more "British" than Triumph. It can´t even be compared. Norton is "hard" British. Triumph is the soft commercial version. You want to make a biking statement, come on the Commando.
And while we´re at it, I heard the Boneville is made in Thailand.

At the same time, would you consider a BMW made in Spartanburg, South Carolina a German car, or an American car?

CR961 said:

Funny and true. But, it this sense we don´t care about the people who think it´s an anti-virus.
Is Norton iconic?
Within the cultural meaning of what you want to say with that word, of course it is. For the biking world, yes. The fact that half the people don´t know it doesn´t make it any less iconic.
Is MV Agusta iconic? You know the answer.

Is Honda iconic? No, unfortunately not. Are there many models in Honda´s history which are positively iconic? Yes, indeed, many.
Is Ducati iconic. Yes, it is, but with many models that would not fit the bill. Is Ferrari iconic? Yes, in the same way.

As for the Britishness of Norton, it´s as good as it gets, regardless of where the parts are made, at least for the time being. In how it is perceived globally, Norton is more "British" than Triumph. It can´t even be compared. Norton is "hard" British. Triumph is the soft commercial version. You want to make a biking statement, come on the Commando.
And while we´re at it, I heard the Boneville is made in Thailand.

At the same time, would you consider a BMW made in Spartanburg, South Carolina a German car, or an American car?

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Please don’t read too much into my (intended to be) amazing little anecdote. Of course I’m a Norton fan, I was wearing the T Shirt after all !!

In fact, I had a mesh jacket for that ride cos of the high temperatures (coast to coast in August) but in the mornings it was chilly, so over the top of the mesh jacket I wore my Norton racing soft shell jacket… whilst riding a Road King

Fast Eddie said:

Please don’t read too much into my (intended to be) amazing little anecdote. Of course I’m a Norton fan, I was wearing the T Shirt after all !!

In fact, I had a mesh jacket for that ride cos of the high temperatures (coast to coast in August) but in the mornings it was chilly, so over the top of the mesh jacket I wore my Norton racing soft shell jacket… whilst riding a Road King

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FE, of course, understood.
I was just making general observations in reaction to you and other posts.

CR961 said:

FE, of course, understood.
I was just making general observations in reaction to you and other posts.

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And I agree with you.

How well known Norton is to the general public isn’t really of much importance to me either.

In fact I’d say that many of us enjoy a brand that’s slightly ‘off piste’ to that of the mass consumption of the madding crowds !

Fast Eddie said:

And I agree with you.

How well known Norton is to the general public isn’t really of much importance to me either.

In fact I’d say that many of us enjoy a brand that’s slightly ‘off piste’ to that of the mass consumption of the madding crowds !

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Yes, this is precisely one of the circumstances which greatly helps.
Exclusivity is partially borne of some kind of discomfort you must invest in order to be on the inside. All of this usually goes hand in hand. This is how the world works.

Reactions to the term Vincent...
...van Gogh (almost every time)
...classical name
...Colour of Money (some fans of the movie)
...Motorcycles (only a minority of bikers, incidentally)

No obvious impact on value, iconography, etc.

I agree with some of the (sometimes overtly-critical) sentiment.

There is no real excuse for being non-responsive to spares enquiries, even from outside of the target market; many may be future customers. It’s more than confusing why Norton is not communicating the future model lineup - unless calculating this approach will build expectation, or it is not yet fully resolved.

They should also be making more of clothing and merch IMO. Maybe they plan to do this with the release of the new model line-up, or they don’t see flooding the market with t’shirts as fitting their premium approach. Who knows.

How long does it take to get a business of this size/type established - accommodated, tooled up and staffed, dealers in place - even without the impact of Covid? I don’t know. Without the backup of the likes of TVS, but with considerable resources at hand, it took Bloor 10 years+.

Not possible to make a profit from bike sales until in a position to do so. Sales have been ongoing for less than 12 months. How long will TVS (and shareholders) put up with loss making? Difficult to say, but they signing up to a 10 year period initially - it‘s evident to all involved that they will not be in the black for a good number of years, so I’m guessing they won’t be holding a red flag up at the end of year one.

The next offerings will not be EV‘s (or small bore commuters) IMO. There will doubtless be a lineup of ICE motorcycles. I for one, despite delays and difficulties, am pretty interested to find out what they might be. ‘Something for everyone’ was the quote.

There would‘nt be a biker in the UK that does’nt recognise the Norton logo, or the Norton motorcycle brand. Not forgetting that Norton have been advertising, and covered by every motorcycle magazine, show, VLOG and BLOG for the last few years. Same for much of the biking world/press. For the current market, anonymity is not an issue.

Norton not an iconic British motorcycle brand? Really? Good luck floating that amongst the British bike fraternity !

What makes a brand an icon?
Failures?
Success?
A model of its product?

Is Black Sabbath an iconic rock band?
Would they have been without Ozzy?

Everyone knows of the Jackson 5
But how many can name the four others besides Michael?

Stephen_Spencer said:

The next offerings will not be EV‘s (or small bore commuters) IMO. There will doubtless be a lineup of ICE motorcycles. I for one, despite delays and difficulties, am pretty interested to find out what they might be. ‘Something for everyone’ was the quote.

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It will be interesting to see what happens. If you recall, the official reason for canning the Atlas range was that they were focusing on EVs !

We shall have to wait and see what comes…

Stephen_Spencer said:

Norton not an iconic British motorcycle brand? Really? Good luck floating that amongst the British bike fraternity !

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Whether or not the Norton brand is iconic, TVS/Norton will push that point to its very limits. They've invested a King's ransom in Norton and it damn well better be iconic to ask the kind of prices that they are.

CR961 said:

Funny and true. But, it this sense we don´t care about the people who think it´s an anti-virus.
Is Norton iconic?
Within the cultural meaning of what you want to say with that word, of course it is. For the biking world, yes. The fact that half the people don´t know it doesn´t make it any less iconic.
Is MV Agusta iconic? You know the answer.

Is Honda iconic? No, unfortunately not. Are there many models in Honda´s history which are positively iconic? Yes, indeed, many.
Is Ducati iconic. Yes, it is, but with many models that would not fit the bill. Is Ferrari iconic? Yes, in the same way.

As for the Britishness of Norton, it´s as good as it gets, regardless of where the parts are made, at least for the time being. In how it is perceived globally, Norton is more "British" than Triumph. It can´t even be compared. Norton is "hard" British. Triumph is the soft commercial version. You want to make a biking statement, come on the Commando.
And while we´re at it, I heard the Boneville is made in Thailand.

At the same time, would you consider a BMW made in Spartanburg, South Carolina a German car, or an American car?

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The definition of iconic is "widely recognized and well-established" so you are wrong with your examples.

We are talking about brands not models. Again in regards to Norton both pre75 and current not many people know the "brand"

Honda. who in the whole world doesn't know Honda?
Triumph same
Ferrari same


MV, Norton and others not so much.

Voodooo said:

What makes a brand an icon?

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History.

Stephen_Spencer said:

History.

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History of being known... Lots of things have history yet not known or widely know

City Garage said:

History of being known... Lots of things have history yet not known or widely know

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No real value to this part of the discussion CG, which is OK. Of course there are different definitions of ‘iconic‘ as an adjective, some formal, some less so - certain relating to more modern discourse.

I happen to believe that Norton Motorcycles, as a British motorcycle brand, fits all of them. Maybe I’m more likely to as an englishman.

Stephen_Spencer said:

No real value to this part of the discussion CG, which is OK. Of course there are different definitions of ‘iconic‘ as an adjective, some formal, some less so - certain relating to more modern discourse.

I happen to believe that Norton Motorcycles, as a British motorcycle brand, fits all of them. Maybe I’m more likely to as an englishman.

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No real value because you always want to be right instead of just having a discussion.